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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#601

Post by tsimionescu »

Noaidi wrote: post #588
Der_Einzige wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering.” Either it does or you’re claiming to be religious and implying you know for sure what happens after we die.

I am not stating either the above. I am only stating I don’t know what happens after we die. So to me dying is not a guarantee of some relief of my suffering. It’s just a logical statement. There’s no religion behind it. Do you know what happens after we die? If you do, can you tell me how you know it?

> If you do, can you tell me how you know it?

The other poster responded to what happens, but here is the how do we know part. We understand very well how physics works, up to some small gaps that are irrelevant here. We know that information about the contents of your mind can't be transmitted outside your body in a way that would not be picked up by some of our sensors. People have tried to actually measure if there is any emanation from the body as a person dies, and there simply isn't any, in any spectra. So, there is no possibility of a soul living the body. Plus, any concept of an afterlife has no place where it could happen. There is no place on earth, in the clouds or underground, for an afterlife to take place in.

So, unless you think all of science is dramatically mistaken, we know with very good certainty that an afterlife is not a real possibility.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#602

Post by jncfhnb »

Noaidi wrote: post #586
jncfhnb wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe your brother was guilted into suffering because you injected a greater fear into his life and your faith is fiction. Maybe your faith isn’t fiction but suicide is ok and Jesus tells him it was completely unnecessary to oppose his own reasoning at the pearly gates (or whatever your faith is). There is no clear answer that extending life is for the best. Not unlike a painful, fruitless intubation that has no c…

I don’t know why you’re bringing up Jesus, I’m not a Christian, and I don’t have faith in Jesus or any religion. But are you saying since my brother was suffering he should’ve died by suicide?

I’m saying the fact that your brother did not commit suicide doesn’t mean life got better.

Perhaps it did. I hope it did. Likely a large portion of people who get past suicide and don’t later commit suicide do feel it got better.

But for a lot of people it doesn’t get better and telling them to keep living is just a cruel self serving choice

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#603

Post by scotty79 »

As a person who lost my life partner six years ago to a brain tumor I completely understand what he did. After seeing things first hand I too don't intend to wait for old age and illness to devastate me. I'm barely over half of his age with no serious health issues that I know of so it's not the time for me yet. But I can fully understand his reasoning.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#604

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

Noaidi wrote: post #596
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery has been against the law for a few years. Are you saying the state owns his life? I’m sure at 90 years old his parents are dead and don’t own his life. I also don’t know if there are little green men living on the moon. But I’m almost sure that the earth wasn’t created in 6 days less than 7000 years ago. Can you tell me abt religious belief that makes sense?

do you think I’m a Christian or something? Because I’m not. And I’m not staying the state owns his life, I’m saying I don’t know who owns it. I’m saying that’s a really difficult philosophical question. But in the United States, you cannot die by suicide legally. So the state does have control over your life. But let’s say I own my life. Why would I want to destroy something I own? Who is the I that benefits from tha…

If the government doesn’t own your life which you agree with, then it doesn’t have the right to tell you what to do with it. If I’m in debilitating pain that has no chance to get better, why wouldn’t I want to end it.

And the US has always been hypocritical about controlling people’s lives.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#605

Post by seneca »

macNchz wrote: post #356
seneca wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. It's a not-so-well-kept secret that hospice care is actually assisted suicide in disguise. It's done with a wink and a nudge, hiding behind the principle of double effect, but it's a mercy everyone knows is happening. It's sad that it has to be done covertly.

This is a misconception—research has found that people entering hospice often live longer than those who do not: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088539240... There are many who will raise their hands with anecdotal counters to this, but I think much of that is borne from misunderstandings about end of life generally, which is a charged and difficult topic lots of people would rather not learn more…

Very interesting. This definitely contradicts my direct experience. I'll have to give the study a close read. Thank you for sharing it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#606

Post by anigbrowl »

firesteelrain wrote: post #518
anigbrowl wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you find the replies to bait 'valuable.'

You literally co-authored a paper on how online communities handle conflict, and yet here you are generating a textbook example for your own citations. At least you’re staying on-brand.

I didn't co-author it, I just think people should read it. Impressive projection, though.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#607

Post by LorenPechtel »

Noaidi wrote: post #404
LorenPechtel wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.

I think it was this part that stuck out to me. “His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.” I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new. But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.

That's not how I see it.

It was seeing my father's death that really solidified it for me that there are things worse than death. I am not in the slightest depressed about it, though.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#608

Post by LorenPechtel »

jonhohle wrote: post #412
LorenPechtel wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's saying that anyone should be encouraged to die. That is an evil thing. But that does not mean that people should not be permitted to choose to die vs suffer.

The thread topic was about terminating the life of someone suffering from dementia who likely didn’t have advanced directive. I read this comment in that context - that it would nto be voluntary, but in cases where the person couldn’t choose for themselves.

You are assuming no advance directive. We are talking about cases where there are advanced directives.

(Although there are cases I would be ok with it without--to me, what's important is the mind. To me personhood extends from first consciousness to last consciousness. Once you are sure the last consciousness has passed I attach no value to the body that remains.)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#609

Post by LorenPechtel »

jkhdigital wrote: post #445
LorenPechtel wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not contempt for human life. It is a recognition that sometimes as the body deteriorates that the quality of life becomes negative. I watched both of my parents deteriorate in the end. The morphine blotted out my father's ability to form long term memory, if it wasn't in front of him things were like they had been before so much morphine was needed. There can be no value in such "life". As far as I'm concerne…

This is about assisted suicide. You can argue all day long about how you have the right to end your own life, but the real issue is whether you have the right to grant another person immunity from charges of homicide for facilitating your death. That is an entirely different beast.

I see no difference. What is important is whether that's your intent or not, I do not care if the means involves another person or not (assuming adequate controls to ensure it's what you wanted. That's why Switzerland has become the place to go--under their law it is not illegal for an uninvolved person to provide aid assuming the person provides the actual trigger. I recall one in a documentary, guy had almost no motor control but he could still bite--a trigger that would start a timer that would turn off IIRC a respirator. They then sedated him so he wouldn't be struggling for air when the ventilator switched off--but without his triggering the timer it was just sedation, he would wake up in time.)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#610

Post by robotresearcher »

Noaidi wrote: post #589
lazyasciiart wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spiritual strength is the ability to be a smug jerk to others because you think you’re better than them. It certainly is a coping mechanism for some people, but it’s hardly one that should be encouraged.

I’ve been nothing but nice on this comment thread. If you disagree with me but can’t gather the words to explain yourself It’s no reason to call me a name for your lack of vocabulary or understanding.

In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the less ability to absorb feedback on your communication style you will have.
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