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Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

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Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#601
post #600
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the shibboleth identity of the phone in their pocket Someone here has religion, and it’s not me. I don’t use Google search because it’s a terrible product and we finally have other options. As for AI, there are dozens of options, and it does not take many examples to see how bad Ai Overview is. Gemini 2.5 Pro, however, is in my tool belt.

> I don’t use Google search [...] I know. But you're posting confidently (along with a ton of other people) in a subthread about Google search anyway, making statements about its behavior which you straight up admit to be unqualified to make. And I'm calling out the disconnect, because someone has to. No one in an echo chamber thinks they're in an echo chamber. This is 100% an echo chamber.

The absurdity of this argument speaks for itself. "You're unqualified to judge it because it's so bad you can't tolerate using it."

I suffered through Google search's decline for the last 15 years along with everyone else. I land on it often enough still to see that the trend is not changing.

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#602
post #600
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the shibboleth identity of the phone in their pocket Someone here has religion, and it’s not me. I don’t use Google search because it’s a terrible product and we finally have other options. As for AI, there are dozens of options, and it does not take many examples to see how bad Ai Overview is. Gemini 2.5 Pro, however, is in my tool belt.

> I don’t use Google search [...] I know. But you're posting confidently (along with a ton of other people) in a subthread about Google search anyway, making statements about its behavior which you straight up admit to be unqualified to make. And I'm calling out the disconnect, because someone has to. No one in an echo chamber thinks they're in an echo chamber. This is 100% an echo chamber.

I gave up contributing to these threads years ago. On the edutainment scale HN threads on search have long tipped over to the "entertainment" side. Most of these threads are for people to performatively sneer at ads, javascript, the web, normies etc. HN just can't have conversation about search in a realistic way anymore.

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a political tool. About a year ago when the NYTimes wrote an article called liked "Who really gets to declare if there is famine in Gaza?", the conclusions of the article were that "well boy it sure is complicated but Gaza is not officially in famine". I found the conclusion and wording suspect. I went looking to see if they would like to the actual UN and World Food Program reports. The official conclusion…

It's true that they do this sort of thing for political reasons, but it sounds like the original NYT report wasn't meant to be merely a paraphrase of a specific UN report? In which case, it would be legitimate to cite other sources and report that they disagree?

No it was a paraphrase of the report and cited no sources that disagreed. It simply sneakily misrepresented the contents and buried the links to the actual report.

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#604
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not dangerous in this implementation. I knew going in there was likely significant margin for error. I would not rely on ChatGPT if I was endangering myself, my people or anyone else for that matter (though this project is at my place). That said, the word "relying" is taking it too far. I'm relying on myself to be able to vet what ChatGPT is telling me. And the great thing about ChatGPT and Gemini, at least the way…

Nothing about what you are describing sounds sane or legal in most jurisdictions. You still need a structural engineer. None of the sources you are describing are reliable.

The sources are reliable. There are prescribed sources for lumber products, fasteners, etc. in residential construction, at least in the US, that are just as accessible to you and me online as they are to structural engineers. Those same sources are what the engineers themselves rely on to do their work, or, more likely, most engineers rely on software that has those sources built in and don't ever reference the primary sources. All the information you need to make concrete, empirical decisions about things like posts in residential construction are available online and don't require an engineering degree to figure out. LLM's are great at taking the uncertain language you input and finding all the sources, and the calculations, for you so you don't have to spend hours digging around on Google to find a "document" you didn't know how to search for, that then has 600 numbers on it that you have to spend more time discerning which number is the right one to use. Or which calculation out of the infinite number out there is the right one for your case. Kind of like a skeleton key or maybe a dictionary that equips you with the language you don't yet know to get to the bottom of something you don't yet fully understand.

Btw, I would not trust an LLM to tell me how to build a suspension bridge. First, I'm unfamiliar with that space. Second, even if I was familiar, the stakes are, as you say, so high that it would be insane to trust something so complex without expert sign off. The post I'm specifically talking about? Near-zero stakes and near-zero risk.

I beg folks to always try and pierce the veil of complexity. Some things are complex and require very specialized training and guardrails. But other complexity is fabricated. There are entrenched interests who want you to feel like you can't do certain things. They're not malicious, but they sometimes exist to make or protect money. There are entire industries propped up by trade groups that are there to make it seem like some things are too complex to be done by laypeople, who have lobbied legislators for regulations that keep folks like you from tackling them. And if your knee-jerk reply is that I'm some kind of conspiracy theorist or anarchist all I'm saying is it's a spectrum. Suspension bridge with traffic driving over it --> should double, triple, quadruple check with professional(s); a post in a house supporting the entire house's load (exaggeration for effect) --> get a single professional to sign off; a post in a house that's supporting a single floor joist with minimal live and dead load (my case!) --> use an LLM to help you DIY the "engineering" to get to good enough (good enough = high margin for error); replace a light switch --> DIY YouTube video.

I am the king of long-winded HN posts. Obviously the time I took to write this (look, ma, no LLM!) is asymmetric with what you wrote, but I'm genuinely wondering if any of this makes you think differently. If not, that's cool of course (and great for the engineers and permit issuers!).

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#605
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about what you are describing sounds sane or legal in most jurisdictions. You still need a structural engineer. None of the sources you are describing are reliable.

The sources are reliable. There are prescribed sources for lumber products, fasteners, etc. in residential construction, at least in the US, that are just as accessible to you and me online as they are to structural engineers. Those same sources are what the engineers themselves rely on to do their work, or, more likely, most engineers rely on software that has those sources built in and don't ever reference the prim…

The issue here is you still don’t know what you don’t know. But you think you do.

The reason you hire a structural engineer is because they do - and they are on the hook if it goes wrong. Which is also why they have to stamp drawings, etc.

Because the next person who owns the house should have some idea who was screwing with the structure of it.

You might be 100% on top of it - in which case that structural engineer should have no problem stamping your calcs eh?

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not dangerous in this implementation. I knew going in there was likely significant margin for error. I would not rely on ChatGPT if I was endangering myself, my people or anyone else for that matter (though this project is at my place). That said, the word "relying" is taking it too far. I'm relying on myself to be able to vet what ChatGPT is telling me. And the great thing about ChatGPT and Gemini, at least the way…

How do you “vet” something technical and something that you can’t even do yourself is beyond me. Vetting things is very likely harder than doing the thing correctly. Especially the thing you are vetting is designed to look correct more than actually being correct. You can picture a physics class where teacher gives a trick problem/solution and 95% of class doesn’t realize until the teacher walks back and explains it.

Hey, just replied to a sibling comment of yours that sort of addresses your commentary. Just in case you didn't read it because I didn't reply to you directly. One thing that reply didn't cover and I'll add here: I disagree that the LLM is actually designed to look correct more than it's trying to actually be correct. I might have a blind spot, but I don't think that is a logical conclusion about LLM's, but if you have special insight about why that's the case please do share. That does happen, of course, but I don't think that is intentional, part of the explicit design, or even inherent to the design. As I said, open to being educated otherwise.

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#607
post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sources are reliable. There are prescribed sources for lumber products, fasteners, etc. in residential construction, at least in the US, that are just as accessible to you and me online as they are to structural engineers. Those same sources are what the engineers themselves rely on to do their work, or, more likely, most engineers rely on software that has those sources built in and don't ever reference the prim…

The issue here is you still don’t know what you don’t know. But you think you do. The reason you hire a structural engineer is because they do - and they are on the hook if it goes wrong. Which is also why they have to stamp drawings, etc. Because the next person who owns the house should have some idea who was screwing with the structure of it. You might be 100% on top of it - in which case that structural engineer…

Ah, nice, thanks so much for actually sticking around to reply. I mean, I get what you're saying, and I know I won't be able to convince you otherwise, but I'll repeat that structural engineering can be complex, but it's not always and a lot of it is prescriptive.

The only other thing I'll add is the ideal vs. the reality. What percent of structural projects done to single-family construction, in particular, do you think is done by engineers? I would guess it's far less than 50%. That's based on my own experience working in the industry, which I know you won't trust (why would you? Random internet guy after all). But for conversation's sake suffice it to say that I believe every time you walk into a house that's several decades old or older you're likely walking into a place that has been manipulated structurally without an engineer's stamp. And the vast majority (99%+ of the time) it's perfectly safe to be in that space.

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#608

The opinion: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223... From page 157: "Glue is essentially a super query log that collects a raft of data about a query and the users interaction with the response. Rem. Tr. at 2808:22809:6 (Allan). The data underlying Glue consists of information relating to (1) the query, such as its text, language, user location, and user device type; (2) ranking information, i…

NB. "Cookie:" is not one of the minimal HTTP request headers needed to accomplish a Google search. No cookies are needed

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#609
post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is you still don’t know what you don’t know. But you think you do. The reason you hire a structural engineer is because they do - and they are on the hook if it goes wrong. Which is also why they have to stamp drawings, etc. Because the next person who owns the house should have some idea who was screwing with the structure of it. You might be 100% on top of it - in which case that structural engineer…

Ah, nice, thanks so much for actually sticking around to reply. I mean, I get what you're saying, and I know I won't be able to convince you otherwise, but I'll repeat that structural engineering can be complex, but it's not always and a lot of it is prescriptive. The only other thing I'll add is the ideal vs. the reality. What percent of structural projects done to single-family construction, in particular, do you t…

Of course - but if you’ve gone behind 99% of people doing their own electrical, you’ll also understand why I’m saying what I’m saying.

Everyone thinks they are the exception. Occasionally, one of them is even right, eh?

Re: Google can keep its Chrome browser but will be barred from exclusive contracts

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I've seen many geeks (who certainly don't make their browser choice based on an annoying popup, and are generally more on the anti-Google side) use Chrome rather than Firefox, at conferences etc. (but this is mostly 5+ years ago). Not the majority, but plenty of well-informed opinionated people. I believe especially back then, Chrome performance was significantly better than Firefox. On Android, Firefox…

> Anecdotally, I've seen many geeks use Chrome rather than Firefox, at conferences etc. Have you asked them why? I'd be willing to bet that it's because of vendor lock-in if you boil down to it. Lots of things only work on Chrome. Video calls are especially prevalent right now, but there's a bunch of bot detection shit that only works on Chrome too.

Yes and IIRC it was not due to any forced factor, just because they considered it better.
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