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“No tax on tips” is an industry plant

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Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#601

Post by alkonaut »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #554
alkonaut wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the trend? I imagine it’s already possible to estimate what year it will be almost zero from that trend. It also tends to accelerate: once a restaurant has very few cash customers they tend to become no-cash because the cost of cash handling is more than the potential loss of business. I’m unsure if there are any legal obstacles to going cashless in the US however. But where I live no one uses cash and more an…

> How is the trend? Very stable, from what I can tell, though with significant regional variation. > the cost of cash handling is more than the potential loss of business High end restaurants will never be cashless. And you can cash tip at a cashless restaurant. The tip isn’t going to the business.

Wow. High end went cashless first of all here. Probably a decade ago.

But yes - cashless is obviously not w.r.t tips. But once a society is 99% cashless no one carries cash so won’t cash tip either.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#602

Post by reissbaker »

Mawr wrote: post #600
reissbaker wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just look this up, it's not a secret. Median total pay, including tips, in the US is $32k for waiters. In France, it's €22k. The UK is £23k. Even factoring in health insurance costs — ~4.5k/year for an Obamacare plan — waiters make more in America. Waiters in the US make significantly more than their British and French counterparts, due to tipping: the US minimum wage is lower than the British and French mini…

$32k = 27.5k€, and if we include the insurance numbers you provided: $27.5k = 23.5k€ > waiters make more in America By apparently 1.5k€ per year? Not a strong argument as it stands and we haven't even begun talking about the lifestyle and workplace differences between the two countries.

Waiters in the U.S. make more, due to tips, despite the U.S. having a lower minimum wage. Do you think American waiters want to make $2k/year less? That's nearly 10% of their income.

And that's before even factoring in the tax benefits, which is exactly what this article is about! No tax on tips means nearly all of that income is untaxed. French waiters pay 11% taxes, and British ones are in a 20% tax bracket. The difference widens even further.

Tips allow American waiters to earn more, and no tax on tips makes them take home even more. Hand-wringing about how the American system pays less than the European one is innumerate.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#603

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

9rx wrote: post #595
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I hate the whole concept of tipping as promoted in the USA. I see it as a way that owners can avoid paying the relevant taxes for employing their staff and instead offload part of that payment onto the customers. The arbitrariness of it also annoys me - why just waiting staff? I'm in the UK, so we mainly have service charges added to the bill to take the place of tips which is a much better system. I also…

> I hate the whole concept of tipping as promoted in the USA. Of all the ways people choose to spend their money, tipping is a strange one to hate. It is not like Taylor Swift pointlessly flying around the world to the detriment of the environment, and thus everyone. It seems pretty foolish, I get that, but fools and their money are to be easily parted. What is the harm in their foolish fun? > I see it as a way that…

I don't mind casual tipping, but it seems to be "expected" in the USA and I've seen various criticisms of customers that don't leave tips (e.g. "the waiting staff need that money to survive"). It does seem wrong to me that some states can pay their staff less than minimum wage and I guess that tipping culture is so ingrained that even when staff are on minimum wage that they still get tips (seems fair to me as minimum wage shouldn't be the target, but merely a minimum).

I don't like the idea that a restaurant's service depends on tipping - I'd rather the restaurant ensures that their staff do their job well and not leave it up to me to determine whether the waiting staff should be paid more or less than the average amount (assuming I even know what the average amount should be).

> You can tip whomever you want — or not tip at all

In theory yes, but society has certain expectations (c.f. Mr Pink in Reservoir Dogs). I don't want to be considered rude or mean just because I'm used to tipping a certain amount and it's below what other people tip - I'm going out for a meal, not playing some ridiculous game. Also, it's not expected for people to tip other staff such as the dish-washer, the farm-hand who raised some of the produce, the accountant, the painter who redecorated a couple of years ago etc. You're being ridiculous if you think that kind of behaviour is common.

Service charges are very much like tips by another name except that there's no guessing about the amount (it's there on the menu before you order and on the bill at the end) and it doesn't bypass tax laws so the restaurant can't really game the system. The customer can't easily opt out which is why it's printed on the menus and if you think it's too much, then you go elsewhere (e.g. get a takeaway instead).

Your difficulty with not accepting tips was due to the strange U.S. tipping culture - I've seen some places just have a charity jar/box for unwanted tips.

(I have experienced U.S. tipping culture on a few holidays and it just seems bizarre and a bit backwards).

Reservoir Dogs tip scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#604

Post by micromacrofoot »

reissbaker wrote: post #602
Mawr wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$32k = 27.5k€, and if we include the insurance numbers you provided: $27.5k = 23.5k€ > waiters make more in America By apparently 1.5k€ per year? Not a strong argument as it stands and we haven't even begun talking about the lifestyle and workplace differences between the two countries.

Waiters in the U.S. make more, due to tips, despite the U.S. having a lower minimum wage. Do you think American waiters want to make $2k/year less? That's nearly 10% of their income. And that's before even factoring in the tax benefits, which is exactly what this article is about! No tax on tips means nearly all of that income is untaxed. French waiters pay 11% taxes, and British ones are in a 20% tax bracket. The di…

most of that income is already untaxed, the american tax system is progressive

no tax on tips reduces pressure for employers to support higher minimum wages, that's why the restaurant lobby supports it

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#605

Post by TylerE »

exe34 wrote: post #589
tarentel wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely not like this everywhere but I've become a regular at a few places over my life time and asked about this. At least where I've been, it is actually all tracked. Generally, at least at bars, the people coming in and tipping well, are people who come in often and spend a lot to begin with so over the long run they end up making it back anyway. And honestly, when you're new to a city/place and don't have a l…

> so over the long run they end up making it back anyway Yeah, they lose on the unit, but they make it back on the volume! How are you both new to a city/place and they already know your name/usual before you've even tipped? Do they send runners out ahead with the information?

Would you rather have 100% of a $20 account or 80% of a $2000 account?

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#606

Post by itake »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #556
itake wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about the tip-free section in: https://www.mollymoon.com/icecreamforeveryone Quick summary: - Tipping results in lower pay for certain genders and races. - laws that protect employees don't apply to customers. Your boss can't make inappropriate comments and pay you less if you complain. But if a customer makes inappropriate comments, its perfectly legal for the customer to pay you less if you reject…

I don’t think any of this is fixed by banning tips. As I said, tipping shouldn’t be mandatory nor required for someone to make a living serving, frankly, relatively wealthy people and experience. If someone owns a restaurant, I can show gratitude by coming more. If my clients like me, they can show gratitude by giving me more business. If a server does a great job independent of their employer, a tip is a good way of…

customers can legally tip different depending on race and genders, employers cannot.

> If a server does a great job independent of their employer, a tip is a good way of showing that.

The problem is customers perceive "great job" more often when the person is from a certain race or gender or body shape. This creates an inequitable environment.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#607

Post by itake »

reissbaker wrote: post #456
itake wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure they would! but that isn't what the law says. Its a $25k DEDUCTION. If someone earned $125k salary + $25k in tips. Their taxable income would decrease by about $6k (or $500/mo, 4% overall).

Okay. I think they would also like an extra $6k.

The Democrat's point isn't that workers shouldn't get tax cuts, but that he gave a $6,000 tax break to top earners, and gave even larger cuts to the wealthy overall.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#608

Post by reissbaker »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #604
reissbaker wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waiters in the U.S. make more, due to tips, despite the U.S. having a lower minimum wage. Do you think American waiters want to make $2k/year less? That's nearly 10% of their income. And that's before even factoring in the tax benefits, which is exactly what this article is about! No tax on tips means nearly all of that income is untaxed. French waiters pay 11% taxes, and British ones are in a 20% tax bracket. The di…

most of that income is already untaxed, the american tax system is progressive no tax on tips reduces pressure for employers to support higher minimum wages, that's why the restaurant lobby supports it

No, the bottom rate in the American tax system is 10%, it's not untaxed... And that's only for income up to $11k, so the median American waiter is actually in the next bracket up (12%) for the majority of their income (they get $11k at 10%, and $21k at 12%). Similarly, the bottom rate in France is 11%, and is not untaxed. The UK has a 0% bottom rate, but it jumps to 20% well before you get to waiter wages.

No tax on tips will positively affect American waiter wages at basically every level. It's pretty simple math.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#609

Post by coldtea »

account42 wrote: post #436
coldtea wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* but leaving a note that says he will give a cash tip if the driver brings the food straight to his door.* Why, where else would they take the food? Leave in at the patio? Drop it on the lawn?

Some people live in multi-tenant buildings where "your door" is not the buildings entrance.

In (other country) they do bring it to your door, even if it's the 6th floor of an apartment building

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#610

Post by frollogaston »

freehorse wrote: post #121
frollogaston wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this exactly matches my experience visiting Sydney from the US, it was great. I'm not antisocial, in fact I enjoy talking to strangers, but it feels very wrong to pay them for it.

They are still paid to be polite and friendly, just not directly from you. It can also be a selection process because the ppl who do not smile enough have been fired or not taken for the job in the first place. Having a boss in these industries “encouraging“ employees to smile more is not unheard of. It makes sense that it feels better than paying directly to produce this outcome, but in a last analysis it is not ver…

It's not the same as working for tip.
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