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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#601

Post by BlueTemplar »

jjani wrote: post #429
_benton wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what becomes the breaking point for them to pull out of a region. Obviously it's about profit but at what point (if any) does it make profitable sense for them to leave?

A point we're still lightyears away from. The lengths they go to in order to operate in China are magnitudes greater than to operate in the EU, yet EU makes them $10+ billion more profit than China. What would actually happen is that the US would start seriously threatening (blackmailing) the EU to a degree where it's forced to relent long before Apple would pull out. Apple's estimated operating profit from the EU is…

Why are you assuming that not only this kind of blackmail is even going to work, but that the EU isn't just going to kick out ALL of US infocoms instead ? (Because of this or because of other issues related to Trump or even Bush (Patriot Act).)

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#602

Post by tabbott »

Apple's app store practices are an abusive monopoly, and I wish the Proton folks luck.

We once had a Zulip update rejected by Apple because we had a link to our GitHub project with the source code for the app in the app itself. And it turns out, if you then click around GitHub, you can find a "Pricing" page that doesn't pay Apple's tax.

Details are here for anyone curious: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28175759

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#603

Post by Nevermark »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #554
Nevermark wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody made such a claim. If you serve web pages, you likely serve many of your users on their Apple devices. And you can’t support features of the web for those users if Apple doesn’t want them to have those features, and prohibits browsers with other engines that do support them on their App Store, and prohibits other sources of web browsers. That’s called “gatekeeping”.

Yes you did: "Try shipping a web browser not based on Apple’s browser functionality on iOS. See how free of gatekeeping the internet is." And no, it isn't. Not supporting certain browser features does not direct traffic or even deny access. So you obviously don't know what gatekeeping is.

Apple is denying access to browsers that support web features they don’t support themselves.

Your argument, or attempt to make an argument, somehow neglects this obvious Apple created and enforced barrier.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#604

Post by fsflover »

trollbridge wrote: post #469
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason that I support alternative (non-Apple) app stores, is that it allows differentiation between mediocre and higher-Quality apps. You can get your clothes from Target or Saks Fifth Avenue. For most folks, Target is fine, but there are people that insist on paying $30 for every pair of skivvies. I think that they should have that choice. If they can afford it, then let them eat cake (for the record, I tend to…

I think the answer is that if you want non-Apple app stores... get a non-Apple phone. For whatever reason, a great deal of people prefer to live inside Apple's walled garden.

> if you want non-Apple app stores... get a non-Apple phone

And you will get 20 times telemetry as a bonus: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#605

Post by Cyph0n »

al_borland wrote: post #594
Cyph0n wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the issue has never been about the 30%, it’s about the closed platform? No, the issue is that they have both a 30% cut of every software sale and a closed platform. Steam has a 30% cut, but not a closed platform, hence the bad analogy. Not sure why you're bringing the Steam Deck into this discussion. Is the only way to play Steam games via Deck? No, so it's completely irrelevant.

> Is the only way to play Steam games via Deck? No, so it's completely irrelevant. Apple has more open platforms as well, macOS. Paying through Apple is also not the only way to pay for Proton. I'm a Proton subscriber, and have an iPhone. I paid for Proton through their website and Apple didn't see a dime, but I still use Proton Mail on my iPhone.

Let me summarize why Apple’s iOS is not even in the same planet as Valve’s Steam:

Apple sells a device (iPhone) whose OS it controls (iOS) that is so ubiquitous to the point where most businesses cannot afford to not have a presence on this OS/platform.

But in order to have a presence, businesses must list their app on the App Store. There is no other natively supported mechanism available to allow your users to interact with your business. And absolutely no sideloading is allowed. Apple charges businesses a 30% tax to use the App Store.

The cherry on top is that you as a business are also completely disallowed from accepting payment that doesn’t adhere to this tax. Not just that, but even indirectly linking to such payment mechanisms from within your app is disallowed.

Not going to engage any further here because I have made my points.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#606

Post by DidYaWipe »

realusername wrote: post #592
reginald78 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I think he is right unfortunately. Most people would just run Chrome and more websites would require Chrome since they could just tell Apple users to deal with it, making the mono-culture even worse.

Less sites would do this is Safari wasn't the last non evergreen browser lagging behind everybody else. Maybe the answer from Apple should be to improve Safari instead of restricting competition.

Whatever that means. Do you have specific complaints about Safari?

FYI:

...fewer sites...

...if Safari were...

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#607

Post by lrvick »

owebmaster wrote: post #593
gilfoy wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I’d probably pay $1.30 instead of $1 for subscriptions just to have them all in one single view where I can cancel them without jumping through hoops.

what about $130 instead of $100?

Someone who did not want to spend money for an apple logo could choose a $50 Android device and put F-Droid on it for 100% free tracking-free open source apps.

People pay extra to be in walled gardens, presumably because they think it will make them cool. If they -like- pointlessly spending money, let them.

No one needs an iPhone, and there is no monopoly. Just educate consumers on alternatives.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#608

Post by Ajedi32 »

someperson wrote: post #565
Validark wrote: post #529

I'm still stuck on the whole 30% tax. How is that considered even remotely reasonable?

Why can't Apple set whatever pricing they want? Unless you're arguing that Apple has a monopoly. Also it's not a tax, though arguably it can be termed an "economic rent" (a technical term) that can be considered excessive, but I'm not sure about that.

> Unless you're arguing that Apple has a monopoly.

Exactly this. There's no competition, because Apple blocks iPhone owners from installing apps through any method other than their App Store (in the US, where this lawsuit is being filed). It's a programmatically-enforced monopoly.

Frankly I'd much rather change that situation than quibble about exactly how much Apple is allowed to charge for their services. Let them charge whatever they want in a free market where they have to compete on a level playing field with everyone else. If developers don't like it, they can use a competing app store to sell their software to iPhone users.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#609

Post by dcow »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #589
shwaj wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet and the Web are not the same thing. Apple absolutely gatekeeps the ability to run non-HTTP internet connected apps. Your statement that Apple is not a “gatekeeper to any part of the Internet” is simply false.

Oh really? Because this app seems to have good reviews: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/udp-tcp-network-utility/id6569... So, since UDP is allowed, I'm curious as to what non-HTTP traffic Apple bans apps from using.

You can’t listen for incoming traffic persistently.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#610

Post by jrflowers »

troupo wrote: post #486
jrflowers wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i think there are a lot of folks who would be willing to have a 27% discount (allow for ~3% card processing fee) and forego those features. This makes sense because companies are used to making 70%, so obviously when given the choice to make 30% more overnight they will simply lower prices to avoid having to deal with all that extra revenue

> This makes sense because companies are used to making 70%, I would love to live in the world you're living in where companies have 70% margin on $5 apps and $10/month subscriptions. And where they ever had those margins.

I agree, I would also love to in a world where “revenue” means “profit”
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