I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt • Hacker News Board

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#601

Post by jeroenhd » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:29 PM UTC

mylesp wrote: post #216

As an Australian, I find it crazy that getting food from a cafeteria at school is the norm in the US. In Australia you bring food from home 90% of the time. On special occasions or every now and then you order lunch from the canteen. It seems almost against American individualism to have a communal meal where everyone is served up the same food and sit indoors in a dining hall. Maybe it is just strange to me but I ca…

I've had the same experience here in the Netherlands. Except there often was no real cafeteria to order from if you forgot your lunch or if something special was going on.

This mechanism does cause troubles for the poorest kids, though. Poor families send their kids to school without lunch, or with very unhealthy food (because that's cheapest).

I'm in favour of schools offering lunch. Parents pay for the sandwiches or whatever they hand out to their kids anyway, might as well get the benefits of economies of scale to reduce costs, while helping poor kids through the day. I doubt the taxes necessary to make this happen would be close to the price parents pay for food (and the time they spend preparing meals for their young kids).

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#602

Post by pnutjam » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:30 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #372

monero-xmr wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It’s not that I don’t want kids fed. It’s that I know deep in my soul that $100 will be spent per child, with $99 extracted along the way by various politicians / consultants / unions, and $1 of disgusting food will (sometimes) be provided to a child. If you oppose any actual steps to feed kids, then you don't want the kids fed. The rest of this is just you justifying why you don't want the kids fed. If you want th…

The arguments are so facetious and facile. India has more corruption then the US and they can handle a free lunch program for all kids. Why can't America?

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#603

Post by em-bee » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

socalgal2 wrote: post #341

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite quotes: > "I was in the Air Force a while, and they had what they call 'policing the area,' and I think that’s a pretty good thing to go by. If everyone just takes care of their own area, then we won’t have any problems. Be here. Be present. Wherever you are, be there. And look around you, and see what needs to be changed." -Willie Nelson

Isn't this also the tragedy of the commons problem though? It only takes a few bad actors to not take care of their own area and over time, those that are doing extra to make up for them eventually feel like they're being taken advantage of. I feel like in Japan it works because the culture adds enough social pressure that those not doing their part fall in line - or something. I don't think most western culture has…

it's not that bad. japan may be the one extreme and the US the other, europe is somewhere in the middle on a sliding scale towards the US. the broken windows theory fits here. to use the analogy, if a window is broken in japan someone would go fix it unprompted. europe mostly manages to keep broken windows in check. and in the US broken windows have gotten out of hand.

the better alternative to social pressure is building community. social pressure means that you are forced to conform because everyone you interact with expects you to. community means that everyone you interact with is your friend.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#604

Post by potato3732842 » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

squigz wrote: post #583

jaggederest wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it really challenging to get people to notice these things, let alone actively take even small actions for positive change. I'm interested in what the community thinks are some of the methods I could use to improve these things, and why people quickly become inured to these kinds of problems. I'm thinking, specifically, about peeling paint, litter, dirty signs, the kind of thing that even a passing effort, a h…

I think it's that people are tired. Tired of paying large amounts of money to taxes that don't seem to fix anything in their day-to-day lives. Tired of companies screwing them over at every possible turn. I recognize things won't easily change while people think that, that it's a tricky, vicious cycle. I wish I knew how to fix it, other than - as another commenter points out - doing the 'little' things and pushing ev…

>I think it's that people are tired. Tired of paying large amounts of money to taxes that don't seem to fix anything in their day-to-day lives. Tired of companies screwing them over at every possible turn.

Tired of hearing these endless debates. Tired of seeing people peddle policy based o11n one set of principals out of one side of their mouth and a different policy based on different principals out of the other.

>doing the 'little' things and pushing ever so slowly for the change we need.

Sometimes improving things, sometimes creating yet more layers of spaghetti that prevent future change....

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#605

Post by lukan » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:35 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #573

lukan wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What happens if the parents who should be responsible, aren’t?" Normally, child protection service? (But what I know, they don't always improve things)

Which do you think is cheaper: Involving social services because someone isn't paying for school lunch, which would involve the state either paying foster parents or providing other costly monitoring, possible court cases, and/or support, or simply covering the cost of school lunches?

Simply covering school lunches, if this would be the decusion here.

But that wouldn't solve the problem of negligent parents, only ease things a little bit for children.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#606

Post by froindt » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:35 PM UTC

Baeocystin wrote: post #387

heresjohnny wrote: post #367

As someone from Europe, I had heard before about bankrupting ambulance rides, slavery in prisons, and food deserts. I did not expect to add “lunch money humiliation ritual” to that list. I’ll think of this next time I complain about my 50% income tax.

I still have vivid memories of getting the 'reduced cost' meal ticket for school lunch. They made all of us with the reduced tickets stand in line and wait for the other kids to get their food first, where all the other kids had to walk past and stare at us, and once everyone else was served, they'd put the food away that was given to the other kids, then hand out shitty plastic-wrapped sandwiches that were half the…

That experience is ridiculous, I'm sorry you had to go through that. My cousin is a teacher and is trying to support one of her students who is very food insecure. She's currently putting a box of food into the kids backpack every day, so the kid doesn't feel different/shame bringing a bag of food home. The one consistent meal the kid gets per day is the school lunch.

It wasn't that child's choice to be born. Some of the biggest lifetime ROI's out there are ensuring a childhood isn't filled with trauma, involves enough nutrition to help their bodies and brains develop, etc.

I have no time for people who make an argument about "the government shouldn't be providing food because it creates a dependency or expectation they'll want for life". Their lifetime earnings and contributions to society will be vastly larger if they aren't hungry during the school day.

It's tough to focus and learn when you're only eating a few hundred calories per day.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#607

Post by squigz » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

potato3732842 wrote: post #604

squigz wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's that people are tired. Tired of paying large amounts of money to taxes that don't seem to fix anything in their day-to-day lives. Tired of companies screwing them over at every possible turn. I recognize things won't easily change while people think that, that it's a tricky, vicious cycle. I wish I knew how to fix it, other than - as another commenter points out - doing the 'little' things and pushing ev…

>I think it's that people are tired. Tired of paying large amounts of money to taxes that don't seem to fix anything in their day-to-day lives. Tired of companies screwing them over at every possible turn. Tired of hearing these endless debates. Tired of seeing people peddle policy based o11n one set of principals out of one side of their mouth and a different policy based on different principals out of the other. >d…

> Sometimes improving things, sometimes creating yet more layers of spaghetti that prevent future change....

I'm talking about, say, engaging in discussions about politics, trying to understand each other, trying to compromise.

I assume you're referring to, for example, enacting more government programs.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#608

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #599

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can do both, especially given the latter pays dividends. People moan about the US's domination on the world stage because it obviously benefits you, collectively, as a country, substantially. Foreigners are always insisting on this to me, but they're never able to come up with concrete examples that are very compelling. The US was doing absolutely fine prior to WW2, back when we didn't feel Europe was our proble…

>It's very simple. I want the dollars spent defending Europe to be spent here at home. Presumably you would still like to spend some dollars defending the US? How many dollars do you think is the difference? (keep in mind there are many nonlinearities in defense spending: you can very easily cut spending by 20% and wind up with 20% of the capability instead of 80%) The US's presense in Europe is very much strategical…

I noticed you weren't able to provide any compelling concrete examples, as expected.

At best, the US does a bad job of providing global public goods which benefit all nations. At the peak of the British Empire, the Brits controlled 25% of the globe. By contrast, US territory barely expanded in the wake of WW2, during the period that we've supposedly been running the world for our own benefit.

During this period, relative US economic strength also declined considerably: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-share-of-global-economy...

>Presumably you would still like to spend some dollars defending the US? How many dollars do you think is the difference? (keep in mind there are many nonlinearities in defense spending: you can very easily cut spending by 20% and wind up with 20% of the capability instead of 80%) The US's presense in Europe is very much strategically part of the US defending itself.

I think we should have a nuclear deterrent. I don't think we should have bases in Europe or commitments to defend foreign countries. We should evaluate all of our spending on the basis of how much it helps with homeland defense.

>If Europe ceased to be an ally to the US and instead became hostile (due to being occipied by e.g. Russia), then it very much would be the US's problem.

I don't seek a hostile relationship with Russia. It's critical for global peace and stability that the major powers have good relationships.

Part of the strategy is to stop inserting ourselves in foreign conflicts so we have less need for military spending. We get nothing but complaints for inserting ourselves in foreign conflicts anyways. If things go right, our involvement is forgotten or taken for granted; if things go wrong, somehow it is always our fault.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#609

Post by potato3732842 » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:40 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #290

camdenreslink wrote: post #259

New York State just passed universal free lunch and breakfast for public school students. Of all the things that we spend our tax dollars on, this feels like a no brainer. Making sure children are fed should be at the top of the list.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

[flagged]

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#610

Post by kibwen » Tue, May 06, 2025, 1:41 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #571

socalgal2 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this also the tragedy of the commons problem though? It only takes a few bad actors to not take care of their own area and over time, those that are doing extra to make up for them eventually feel like they're being taken advantage of. I feel like in Japan it works because the culture adds enough social pressure that those not doing their part fall in line - or something. I don't think most western culture has…

The only thing that changes behavior is consequences. Thus fines and a functioning justice system are born. Somehow shame doesn't work anymore.

> Somehow shame doesn't work anymore.

We don't need to wonder. Shame as a mechanism only works in social contexts that feature a high degree of social dependency. In olden days, if all your neighbors hated you to the point of dissociating with you, that could be tantamount to a death sentence (who's going to share food with you when your harvest fails or take care of you when your household falls ill?); that's a society with high social dependency. For better or worse, modern society is built on abstracting away this dependency. (It's the same thing that explains declining church attendance: a church is a social organization, but nowadays if you need to find a spouse you ask a dating app instead of your congregation, and then when you need marriage counseling you ask a professional marriage counselor instead of your priest, etc. Economic transactions have replaced social dependency.)