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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#601

Post by JumpCrisscross »

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire

Only Nixon could go to China [1].

To the degree the Israel-Palestine war could have helped America, it already has. Hezbollah has given way to a power-sharing government in Lebanon. Syria, miraculously, is a wild card--with major implications for Russia and Iran. Hamas has been downgraded from a threat to a nuisance. And not only is Iran on its back foot, we also got a free PR campaign for the efficacy of American weapons and worthlessness of post-Soviet Russian air defences.

Realpolitikally speaking, any more war is an expensive distraction. (Potent for a media-time savvy guy.) I'm sure Netanyahu could find something new to bomb in Gaza. But it's not a bad time for him to consolidate gains, politically and geopolitically, and possibly re-aim Washington's eye towards Iran.

(On a human level, it does seem Trump gets moved by images of war deaths. Maybe the carnage actually touched him.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#602

Post by sub7 »

tptacek wrote: post #350

Hamas was offered a ceasefire under exactly the same terms in May, and refused it. Since then: * Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of the Hamas political wing, was killed in Tehran * Yahyah Sinwar, the leader of the Al-Qassam Brigades, was killed in Gaza * Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Lebanese Hezbollah, was killed in Beirut * Hashem Safieddine, Nasrallah's successor, was killed a week later * Large swathes of Hezbollah'…

Actually all these deaths are just transitory feel goods for the Israeli side. By killing more civilians than ever before, Hamas is able to recruit the same (maybe more) fighters back. They will have different leaders with different names, but these fighters who have had innocent family killed and now want revenge will be blowing themselves up at some point in the next decade or 2 and Israel is equally or less safe as a result.

Pager attack is a notable exception here, that was actually targeted badassery.

It goes on.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#603

Post by thomassmith65 »

gravisultra wrote: post #296
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

That's not true at all. The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud. It was very much caused by the deliberate provocation and importation of European settlers via Zionism. It's easy to wave our hands and say "it's so complicated!" or "they've been doing this for thousands of years!" but it's not complicated, much like apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not complicated. Colonialis…

It's 'not complicated' if one is lazy. The comment is missing a lot of mitigating pieces of information:

- the empires that governed the land before '48 and how that affects consent

- the lack of options for Jews facing persecution, pograms and a holocaust given immigration policies of nations around the world

- the many Jews in Israel formerly from middle-eastern nations

- the complication to the birth-right citizenship argument that all Jews have Israeli ancestry (albeit very distant, in many cases)

- the UN Partition Plan for Palestine

The problem with the conflict is that both sides are right. It's not the Palestinians' fault that their land was least bad refuge for Jews, but it probably was.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#604

Post by bawolff »

lostlogin wrote: post #528
KikoHeit wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

Civilians who die during war rarely have any responsibility for the things their leader do.

What say did the average russian citizen have in putin's choice to invade Ukraine? And yet we are largely ok with ukraine bombing russia, killing some of those civilians in the process. That is the way of war.

I believe we should focus on things that are violations of the rules of war, not civilian death in its entirety. Otherwise we are just saying war is evil, as innocents have died in pretty much every war. A true point perhaps but kind of useless. It also raises the question of what one should do when confronted with war? Just roll over and die.

It has been alleged that Israel has violated rules of war. If true and backed up by evidence, it should be condemed for such violation. But civilian deaths are not a violation of the rules of war. They can be under certain circumstances, but they aren't in and of themselves.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#605

Post by bawolff »

colordrops wrote: post #533
KikoHeit wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

First, no concrete evidence was ever presented that anyone was raped or babies burned. Even Israel admitted no babies were burned. These were lies to dehumanize Palestinians and justify the atrocities committed against them. Second, history didn't start on October 7th. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed before Oct 7, including hundreds at a peace protest just a few years before. And Israel had 5000 ho…

> First, no concrete evidence was ever presented that anyone was raped

The international criminal court has found there is sufficient evidenve to issue a warrant for the crime against humanity of rape for Hamas leadership.

Obviously Its not the same as a guilty verdict, there has been no trial, but i would still consider that pretty compelling.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#606

Post by jdietrich »

malandrew wrote: post #507
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to pretend that Jews haven’t lived there for thousands and thousands of years, before the Arabs arrived?

In 1872, less than 4% of Palestine was Jewish. It was 17% in 1931. 33% in 1948 when Israel was formed. The vast vast majority of Jews in Israel now are Ashkenazi. Ashkenazis are from Khazaria and converted to Judaism between 740 and 920 AD. Even from this population, there is a bottleneck around 600 to 800 years ago where the population was down to 350 individuals [1]. By and large very very few Jews in Palestine/Isr…

>The vast vast majority of Jews in Israel now are Ashkenazi.

That's simply untrue.

https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#607

Post by aprilthird2021 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #601
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire Only Nixon could go to China [1]. To the degree the Israel-Palestine war could have helped America, it already has. Hezbollah has given way to a power-sharing government in Lebanon. Syria, miraculously, is a wild card-…

> To the degree the Israel-Palestine war could have helped America, it already has

Idk, what we had to watch Israel do and fund with our own money may not have been worth all those achievements. Only time will tell... We made a lot of advancements in Iraq and Afghanistan too, and that was nowhere near as careless about human suffering as this latest flare up. And we lost all that progress extremely rapidly due to the hatred the local populace and neighboring countries had due to our actions. I think Israel (and us, since we are tied together) might face the same unforced error.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#609

Post by mjfl »

wordofx wrote: post #475
mjfl wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas accepted the deal back in May, but then Netanyahu refused to sign the deal, and revised it into a form that was no longer acceptable.

[flagged]

Haaretz: Netanyahu Hoped Hamas Would Reject the Cease-fire Offer. When It Didn't, He Turned to Sabotage

https://archive.ph/8Mcbz

Haaretz: Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending

https://archive.ph/3gw1o

It's also important to recognize that before they accepted the deal, Hamas was being presented as the last hold out, the implacable one.

The New York Times reported on April 29th, that Anthony Blinken said "the onus was now on Hamas... Hamas has before it a proposal that is extraordinarily generous on the part of Israel.. And at the moment, the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a cease-fire is Hamas." (https://archive.ph/QjlSq)

The Washington post reported on April 29th, that Israeli officials seemed to be totally aware of the extra concession in the current negotiations. "The signs of optimism came after Israel presented terms to negotiators last week that 'broke new ground,' according to an Israeli official familiar with the deliberations." (https://archive.ph/o85Pk)

Many Israelis marched to protest Netanyahu's rejection of the ceasefire. BBC reports "Thousands of Israelis around the country have joined rallies calling for the government of Benjamin Netanyahu to agree to the terms of a ceasefire deal that Hamas accepted on Monday." (https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/israel...)

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#610

Post by mupuff1234 »

malandrew wrote: post #581
mupuff1234 wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all the hostages are really just kept inside secret IDF facilities, right? Did some die due you friendly fire? Yes, we know that, but your take is pretty unhinged.

Strawman much? Taking hostages has practical benefits. Indiscriminate killing of folks that don't present a threat isn't practical. Every single one of those combatants that left the fence that day had a limited amount of ammunition on them. Practically speaking, most US soldiers will patrol with about 7 magazines with 30 rounds in each magazine, plus two pistol magazines. Add another magazine in each firearm. A typi…

Are you know claiming that an Ak-47 is incapable of killing people?

We've seen footage of Hamas fighters literally strolling Israeli villages and cities basically unopposed for hours, of course they could easily kill tons of people.

Seriously, just stop. If you find yourself in a position trying to defend a terrorist attack on civilians (on either sides) it means you lost the plot somewhere along the way.

And this is coming from someone who thinks that what has/is happening in Gaza is horrible and that is pro a 2 state solution.

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