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DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#601

Post by LUmBULtERA »

andrewmutz wrote: post #531
wh0knows wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This definitely requires some citations. There is no evidence that you are presenting that supports the 2-5% claim. I don’t think you are fully understanding the impact of price collusion or the suit presented here. The DOJ very clearly thinks this is anticompetitive.

Honestly the strongest argument I've heard that these algorithms are anticompetitive is "The DoJ thinks they are". So maybe there's some non-public information of anticompetitive behavior. We don't know how many housing units use Realpage pricing algorithms in 2024, but in 2017 when Realpage bought the tech, it was being used in 1.5 million rentals ( https://www.realpage.com/news/realpage-to-acquire-lease-rent... ) a…

>Perhaps they have a low marketshare nationally, but they have a high marketshare in a few specific markets? Maybe, lets see what the DoJ says.

I think it's very much this. National market share is meaningless. I live in Northern Virginia -- some SFH that rents in another market is meaningless for someone looking for an apartment here. In this area, it seems very much that all large multi-unit apartment buildings use RealPage. Individually owned condos that are rented out exist, but of course their quantity is very tiny compared to the number of apartment towers/complexes. SFHs, likewise, are poor substitutes, because someone in the price range of a studio, 1 or 2 bedroom unit isn't going to rent a SFH and splitting a SFH brings problems of its own.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#602

Post by hansvm »

sithadmin wrote: post #438
ndesaulniers wrote: post #417

Companies are culluding to suppress wages by algorithm, too. Look up a company called Aon, and their product called Radford Data & Analytics.

Not just by algorithm. In the US, many large employers utilize 'The Work Number' by Equifax for employment verification services, and share details about individual employees as granular as individual paycheck disbursements. This information is visible to other employers that buy in to the scheme, and obviously favors the employer in salary negotiations with a candidate.

Not just individual paycheck disbursements -- scans of the entire paycheck, any routing and account numbers, tax withholdings, medical deductions, ....

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#603

Post by rangestransform »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #364
ebiester wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was this? Have you paid attention to the percentage of wages required for a unit nationally? In your area?

> Have you paid attention to the percentage of wages required for a unit nationally? In your area? Roommates.

each successive generation shouldn't have to endure more and more hardship to achieve the same standard of living, especially if it's due to previous generations imposing regulatory barriers

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#604

Post by hansvm »

andrewmutz wrote: post #486
tqi wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm having a hard time understanding is why RealPage cared about "compliance" in the first place - do they charge as a % of rent? That seems nuts, I would imagine landlords hate that. If not % of rent then I can't understand why the company would want rents to be higher across the board.

I built software for this industry (not at realpage) for 10+ years and can explain why price compliance is a big deal. The reason is that there is a fundamental principal vs. agent problem in the fee-based property management industry. Usually an investor buys a building and then hires a separate corporation called a fee-based property management company to manage the property. The management company gets to keep 8-1…

That's my main argument against realtors too -- at first blush they look to have aligned incentives, but the vastly different scales and workloads tend to push realtors into trying to get you to sell for a lower than optimal price.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#605

Post by rangestransform »

duped wrote: post #402
bunderbunder wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, we adjust the tax code to reflect the instinct that people should deserve to keep a larger percentage of money when they actually worked to earn it, and that income that's essentially free to people who already have lots of money should maybe be taxed at a higher rate. I realize this is a spicy take, but we've really got to get away from this thing where we advantage passive income for wealthy landowne…

To be fair, the income isn't "free" and the margins are basically zero for small-time property owners on the rent itself. The bulk of the income comes from appreciation in value of the real estate, and when you sell you owe capital gains taxes (which are exempt on sales of a primary residence). And in most places the property taxes are higher, for my home it's about 15% higher. I only know this because I have been pr…

> All told it's a slightly better investment than S&P 500 index funds, but resistant to downturns

This is incredibly bad for society. Investing in businesses that hire people and make goods and services should never be disadvantaged relative to hoarding a plot of land, and it is the folly of the anglosphere that we've allowed land hoarders to siphon so much money from people doing actually productive things.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#606

Post by rangestransform »

mullingitover wrote: post #358
__loam wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should build large numbers of commie blocks until PE firms regret buying residential properties.

Better yet, we can just copy Singapore or Vienna's public housing systems and actually have desirable public housing. Arguably, the reason we don't already have this is because a large contingent of the voting public has been conditioned to believe that if the government does something well, it's communism, so the government should do anything well.

a large contingent of the voting public, the same contigent that support public housing and are against private housing, see enforcing nuisance and public order laws as (race|class)ist. until enforcing laws against disadvantaged minorities in their own homes and neighbourhoods becomes acceptable again, public housing with under-market tenants will continue to rapidly degrade into hovels like NYCHA.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#607

Post by miketery »

thfuran wrote: post #541
alasdair_ wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just make PII copyright of the person it identifies, similar to how a "likeness" is owned by a person. Then sue for copyright infringement.

Then all the five page long boilerplate contracts for every service you use are just going to add another clause saying that they get an irrevocable, transferable license to the data they collect. Probably without telling you because there's already a clause saying they're allowed to change the contract without notice.

Regulations can and often do supersede contract clauses.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#608

Post by vineyardmike »

SideQuark wrote: post #594
vineyardmike wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or I simply stop using their pricing, undercut my competitors, and gain tenants. Same as before. Except the landlords signed a contract... they legally bound themselves to using their pricing. Also the market keeps changing, so you'll need their pricing in the future (so you can't break your contracts), or you'll need to do your own independent market research without access to their data. > It's pretty hard to set…

> signed a contract Contracts aren't infinite. And contracts have to follow the law. > so you'll need their pricing in the future (so you can't break your contracts), or you'll need to do your own independent market research without access to their data >The entire US is not one market. Are you trying to claim that of the millions of landlords, somehow they are clustered away from bigger markets and that RealPage con…

> Contracts aren't infinite. And contracts have to follow the law.

Yes! And the RealPage contract broke the law. It prevented landlords from competing as you suggest they compete, breaking the law. It enabled landlords to collude and prevent prices from dropping.

Landlords are part of larger markets, but it’s ridiculous to think the market is “all of America”. It’s very regionalized and segmented.

> Here's an idea: demonstrate that in some big market that RealPage controls the majority of the rental units, otherwise it's ludicrous to say they are setting prices somehow arbitrarily. You can't since it's not true. I think not.

You absolutely can claim they are setting pricing arbitrarily… why are you defending a company whose business you seem to know nothing about? Again, their entire business model is a subscription to collusion pricing. Collusion is illegal event without a monopoly.

They are price fixing. They are not alleged to have a monopoly over housing units. That said, they are alleged to have a monopoly power…

According to the DOJ:

> The complaint separately alleges that RealPage has unlawfully maintained its monopoly over commercial revenue management software for multi-family dwellings in the United States, in which RealPage commands approximately 80% market share.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#609

Post by mullingitover »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #560
mullingitover wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fail a test and the rest of the class doesn't, it implies that you were just unprepared for the problems the test is not in fact impossible. Just because the US made some poor decisions (e.g obviously cramming 100% poor people into vertical concentration camps doesn't work, you need to have mixed incomes to have a healthy community) in its rollout of public housing many decades ago doesn't mean it's an unworka…

Sure! But the fact that it's possible in principle doesn't automatically prove that you should trust your local city planners when they say they're totally gonna get it right this time. It's not like public housing has gone completely extinct in the US. Chicago is working on a couple of mixed-income projects, and if they succeed at creating safe units where people who have a choice might like to live, presumably that…

> In San Francisco, for example

Haha, yeah let's exclude SF from any cities we're going to use as examples of good planners, unless we're talking about "How to slowly convert a city into a giant museum." 99% of the city's purist concern trolling is purely to prevent development, not about doing it equitably. Indeed, any city that's setting unrealistic development goals in the name of equity is likely doing it as an excuse to block development/solicit bribes/transfer wealth to existing property owners.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#610

Post by 0x457 »

medvezhenok wrote: post #241
Manuel_D wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, RealPage only serves 10% of the rental market in San Francisco: https://jacobin.com/2024/08/realpage-software-housing-landlo... > The company has reported that it provides these services to 10 percent of the rental market in San Francisco. RealPage doesn't have nearly enough market share to engage in price-fixing. If it tried, its units would stay vacant as other renters flock to the 90% of units that are…

Sure, but what matters is what percentage of the apartments with vacancies RealPage controls. Many apartments don't turn over year-to-year, so that 10 percent might or might not be misleading.

Yeah, aside from privately owned properties (comes with its own set of issues), every company managed property I've rented was priced by RealPage.

I know it's a very anecdotal and non-scientific.

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