Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#601

Post by rsynnott » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 11:12 AM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #28

notaustinpowers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is a strategy, this is all theater so he has some pushback if investors file complaints or lawsuits during the next quarterly results meeting. They can't say that Tim Cook didn't do everything in his power to make them even *more* money. Since, ultimately, his duty as a CEO is to prioritize the financial wealth of shareholders. If he just complied with the EU then he'd be voted out by the board by…

> If he just complied with the EU then he'd be voted out by the board by the end of the week. Most companies like Facebook and Microsoft quietly comply with the rules as best they can with as little fanfare as possible. Maybe after paying a fine or two. As far as I know, there hasn't been any oustings because of that.

I mean, Facebook has been repeatedly fined for various non-compliance, for years. Apple, at least for the moment, isn’t really there yet.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#602

Post by rsynnott » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 11:18 AM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #202

VladTheImpalor wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? Housing is infinitely better than the US, job security can be better, work life balance is better, cities are nicer to look at, architecture is better, people are more active, fitter, have lives beyond work. The bread is better, so is the cheese. There is real food available. Public transport is plentiful. Society feels a bit less polarised. The EU is infinitely better than living in the states. At least for thi…

Interesting. I thought housing in the EU has been a challenge for generations with home ownership a difficult to impossible goal for most people, with this being the case across the region. In the US the housing affordability issue is in a few highly desirable urban areas, but not being generally case across the country. I think the bread in the US, sans the supermarket stuff, is generally exceptional with bakeries t…

> I thought housing in the EU has been a challenge for generations with home ownership a difficult to impossible goal for most people, with this being the case across the region.

Who told you that? I mean, it’s certainly the case in some places (particularly in large affluent cities), but, much like in the US, it’s variable. If you take EU countries and the US and rank by home ownership percentage, the US is on the low end (even Ireland, with its long-running nationwide housing crisis, beats the US here). Notably _Germany_ is much lower (65% of US homes are owner occupied, 50% of German homes), but Germany’s an outlier in Europe on this; to a large extent it’s driven by below-cost social housing.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#603

Post by rsynnott » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 11:27 AM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #475

snowpid wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" But the reality of America is much more complex than that, and that’s accelerated since the 1950’s, and was completely broken down in the 1990’s. " You complain a lack of seing the complexity of American food but instead you have a simple view of the European cultures. Have you been ever in any European country and when? I have the feeling you havent been.

I’ve traveled through most of Europe and the UK for pleasure but also regularly visit Germany, Italy, France, Ireland, Scotland, England, and Switzerland for work. If I go to your average Italian city I simply won’t find good Thai food. I’ll get a lot of great Italian food for sure. But no Malay, no Nepalese, no afghan, no Peruvian, etc. I’m sure you’ll find counter examples, but the US genuinely is a melting pot wit…

One thing to bear in mind; if you’re a tourist in a place, you tend to be exposed to the touristy stuff. Italy actually is an example where getting good non-Italian food may be difficult even in many large cities (this broadly makes sense; it has the oldest population in Europe and one of the lowest immigration rates), but it’s a bit of an outlier there; most large European cities will do better.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#604

Post by roenxi » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 11:33 AM UTC

ReflectedImage wrote: post #587

roenxi wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... all corporations [0] are modelled after authoritarian states. The only model that seems to work is a single person with dictatorial power and a tree shaped hierarchy. Pretty much everyone does that, and the exceptions prove the rule. It isn't weird that they have authoritarian views of how their assets should be managed. Hold in mind that everything involves trade offs. Authoritarianism is really good at mono…

Authoritarian states are a very ineffective model. A leader can lead their small band of merry man to rob the highway alright. But it doesn't scale up to larger groups of people. If you talk to the CEOs of large companies or miltary leaders, you find that they are unable to exert effective control of their organisations. The organisation will do whatever it wants to do. The leader can make their command but at every…

> Democracy is a lot more scary than Authoritarism from a military perspective.

Yes. But note that armies are a hierarchy with little flexibility once orders start coming down. When democracies want to achieve outcomes they set up (subordinate) dictatorships. The army does not stop to vote in the middle of a war. Indeed, sticking to the Ukraine example, they suspended elections as I assume is usual in war.

Democracy is a better model of governance because the military can focus on winning wars. In a dictatorship, the military has to focus on keeping the dictator in power - otherwise the dictator will get rolled. Since authoritarianism can only do one thing at once, generally they have a weak military at the expense of stability.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#605

Post by NekkoDroid » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:06 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #482

tpmoney wrote: post #471

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It's not whether Apple will, it's the other developers that you might not have a choice to interact with. Sure, in the tech space, we're all imagining the great open source on iOS revolution. Gamers are anticipating their Fortnite. And I'm sure Facebook is anticipating not having to ask for permission to hoover up all your personal data. Sure you don't need facebook, but if you want to be using WhatsApp to communicat…

That would certainly be an interesting turn of events if major apps like Facebook or Whatsapp decided to d-list from the app store and require their own store. Given Apple's current heavy fees and disincentives to do that, I'm guessing epic is probably the only company that will. I think a lot of people would refuse to install an alternative app store to get most apps. But most of all, I look at Android where alterna…

> Facebook or Whatsapp decided to d-list from the app store and require their own store.

Considering this hasn't happened on Android yet, I doubt you are in real trouble. Like it's not that they can really gain extra permissions (other than I guess tracking anything the app already has access to, but that isn't any different than currently) because they are sandboxed by the OS and limited in access through the permission system... I HOPE? RIGHT? @APPLE

And on the side of other app stores: there is F-Droid which is decently popular for OSS apps.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#606

Post by NekkoDroid » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:10 PM UTC

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #520

throwaway5959 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the EU should be able to say what Apple or Google can or cannot do in terms of their products. You don’t see the US constantly fining Airbus.

Why not? They tell US car makers what their products should do. The same for fruit growers, clothes makers and thousands of other businesses selling into the common market. It's called regulation and it's a normal part of modern life. We're a society of laws and they apply equally to everyone. If you don't like the laws either vote accordingly, talk to your representative, organise a political action, or leave for a…

I find it funny them bringing up aviation companies when it feels like every month Boeing appears in the news for something falling off their plan while in flight, be it doors or wheels. That is what happens when you let companies "do what ever they want" and mind you aviation is VERY REGULATED.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#607

Post by magicloop » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:12 PM UTC

What has happened here is all about the personalities involved, not a business strategy, not a legal strategy.

It is "Forming, Storming, Norming, ... " (Tuckman's stages of group development)

Forming = setting up the technical and business solution for DMA

Storming = arguing due to the newly experienced dynamics of power/control

Norming = CEO stepping in the get a resolved balance in what to do next

Phil Schiller would have been the point man on the business solution (you can hear his tone of voice in the News communications and now see his private messaging as released by Sweeney).

The regulator involvement would have gone via the CEO route, who would have had to resolve the conflict with his deputised point man (Phil).

Companies are just collections of people. Maybe they share world view or a values system, but they are still just people. So human psychology is a relevant (and I argue the most significant) factor coming into play here.

If there was a market logic, I think it would be that they'd prefer the alternative marketplace provider be someone like Amazon, and then have Fortnite be an app in that store. So the commercial disputes then are deflected away from Apple/Epic animosity.

The original business case for 3G wireless networking was "Girls-Games-Gambling". The business case for alternative app marketplaces is a similar content argument "Games-Gambling&Crypto-Porn". Maybe this is part of what is keeping Meta/Amazon/Google away. Those folks can swallow a Core Tech Fee (although would be a significant friction point for sure).

I think the fundamental root problem here is EC are trying to lower prices to businesses by attempting to foster competition which might lower prices. But the actual solution is to directly mandate lower prices, and keep the gatekeepers with their current control points and systems. In other words, consider App Store commissions as actual Taxes. And we know from history that "taxes without representation" lead to revolution.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#608

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:16 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #604

ReflectedImage wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authoritarian states are a very ineffective model. A leader can lead their small band of merry man to rob the highway alright. But it doesn't scale up to larger groups of people. If you talk to the CEOs of large companies or miltary leaders, you find that they are unable to exert effective control of their organisations. The organisation will do whatever it wants to do. The leader can make their command but at every…

> Democracy is a lot more scary than Authoritarism from a military perspective. Yes. But note that armies are a hierarchy with little flexibility once orders start coming down. When democracies want to achieve outcomes they set up (subordinate) dictatorships. The army does not stop to vote in the middle of a war. Indeed, sticking to the Ukraine example, they suspended elections as I assume is usual in war. Democracy…

Democracy without what you term 'subordinate-dictatorship' would just be anarchy. Democracy is the _collective_ will of the people, it necessarily includes compulsion to do things one doesn't precisely align with which you seem to consider as "dictatorship". But, when the demos compells you to obey orders, that's still democracy.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#609

Post by roenxi » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:37 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #608

roenxi wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is a lot more scary than Authoritarism from a military perspective. Yes. But note that armies are a hierarchy with little flexibility once orders start coming down. When democracies want to achieve outcomes they set up (subordinate) dictatorships. The army does not stop to vote in the middle of a war. Indeed, sticking to the Ukraine example, they suspended elections as I assume is usual in war. Democracy…

Democracy without what you term 'subordinate-dictatorship' would just be anarchy. Democracy is the _collective_ will of the people, it necessarily includes compulsion to do things one doesn't precisely align with which you seem to consider as "dictatorship". But, when the demos compells you to obey orders, that's still democracy.

There is a hierarchy and a single person at the peak of it who has ultimate executive power (a Chief Executive Officer, if you will) then it'll perform roughly the same as as authoritarian system except in some highly unusual circumstances. A military coup by the army would play out differently for example, but day-to-day operation would be largely the same. And most of the performance differences between democracies and non-democracies come down to democracies having more freedom not to worry as much about generals getting too powerful.

It doesn't matter where the power officially stems from, the decision making bandwidth and incentive structures govern results - and for companies that is a clear authoritarian model.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#610

Post by throwaway67743 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 12:42 PM UTC

jfoster wrote: post #429

overgard wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely just Apple trying to save face. Without the threat of fines and lengthy legal proceedings Apple would not have cared about "epic's commitment to follow the rules"

Difficult to imagine what Apple were thinking in the first place. Did they actually think there was a chance the EU would let this slide? Best I can tell, all they've achieved is bringing even greater scrutiny on themselves.

They think they're above the law, as evidenced by their repeated poking and misrepresenting facts.