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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#601

Post by foobiekr »

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Look, all sentences in any language implicitly start with or end with the words: "For now." The sooner you incorporate that into your beliefs, the better off you will be. It isn't about "trust." Trust is conditional and blind trust in statements that cannot be true under all circumstances is something you just need to grow out of; circumstances change and intents change.

As you gain experience, you get really good at parsing and identifying axes of flexibility in statements from the power structure. In general, professional managers in a power structure will always distort or mislead with any statements they make to turn any announcement into a steering opportunity. This is just how it is and it's really not about "trust", it's about manipulation.

Manipulation is _everywhere_ in the tech companies. Nothing is more amazing to me than an experience I had early on that woke me up: the day after I attended a meeting about how the company was working on a project that was incredibly unethical (think google's china search engine-level unethical or worse, like Nokia's building anti-dissident features into their 3g networking for Iran), I attended a company all hands where the entire message from every exec, including those that were involved, was about how we were a force for free speech, freedom, etc. I already knew but it was stark.

They also engage in constant attempts to blur things. Google, in particular, spends a lot of money to help muddy the job-vs-personal waters because it gives them power. For their first decade and a half, at least, they ran the whole company like college - extracurricular activities, etc. This wasn't just because the founders had no professional experience prior, it was strategic to make it very hard for people to leave (and when they started leaving for FB, that was to another place that was similar).

So forget about "trust" - start thinking in terms of "what is this person not saying, what is this person trying to imply without putting it in words, what flexibility are they reserving for themselves with their statements" etc.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#602

Post by mguerville »

otikik wrote: post #108
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

Parts of it is that when you're cutting an arbitrary number (like 5%) just because.... you kind have to do it "randomly" so that there's no claim of discrimination. If it just so happens that all you best performers share a demographic trait of the protected or protected-adjacent kind (sex, orientation, religious beliefs, etc.) you'd expose yourself to discrimination lawsuits by people who don't match that facet.

It sucks and it's a symptom of risk management being a leading consideration to the process of a layoff, more so than performance optimization or culture change, but that's how it "makes sense"

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#603

Post by JohnFen »

rkachowski wrote: post #434
katzgrau wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone reading this, please don’t subscribe to this level of cynicism. For SWEs at Google and almost anywhere else, the wind has blown very favorably for you and that’s something to be celebrated. The direction of the wind has shifted, but we can never expect it to stay blowing in one direction forever, even if others get lucky and catch one like that. You will no doubt set your sail and take it to new and wonder…

Are you seriously saying that people should express gratitude for being fired without ceremony, whilst the company at hand makes record profits? All the "wind", "sails" and boat metaphors won't change the fact that loyalty is a virtue that fits very poorly on both sides of employment.

That wasn't how I read that comment. What I heard him say was that we should be grateful for having been able to take advantage of an unusually favorable environment, while at the same time recognizing that it's been an unusually favorable environment that will, sooner or later, regress closer to the mean.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#604

Post by tayo42 »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #437
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

> You can't trust anything anyone above you in the management chain tells you See a recent HN thread: "Signs that it's time to leave a company" _ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38943040 When you see that management people can't be direct, plain-spoken, and authentic with employees, you should realise that there is a cronyarchy... and you are not in the special club.

> management people can't be direct, plain-spoken, and authentic with employees,

This just corporate culture though. where are you working where that isnt the case?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#605

Post by Apocryphon »

lokar wrote: post #574
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

I did over 400 interviews working there, and many hundreds more serving on hiring committees. I never gave a leetcode interview, and saw only a modest amount of them in committee. “It’s all leetcode BS” makes a great offhand d complaint but was not the actual truth.

Okay, then what questions did you give in interview?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#606

Post by gopher2000 »

10xDev wrote: post #466

What is interesting is that now with all the layoffs we also have more CS graduates than ever [0] who were told that tech companies are struggling to find candidates to fill their vacancies. We are reaching a point, if not already at the point where we will have bunch of unemployed CS grads who will have to make a pivot into something entirely different. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d22/tables/dt22_322.10.…

Are you sure we're reaching that point? The market has certainly cooled but tech jobs are still available. I do think that many new grads will have to adjust their expectations from high 6 figure jobs in FAANGs to normal-but-still-fine compensation in tier 3-4 companies.

I would also argue that it's hard to predict what the market looks like 4 years into the future. That's a reality people should acknowledge when they start a CS degree, etc.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#607

Post by dekhn »

pb7 wrote: post #541
devjab wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed. Another part is that tech int…

What are some noteworthy Danish companies that have created innovative products?

Novo Nordisk comes to mind.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#608

Post by SirMaster »

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

>Your job is NOT safe.

Maybe your job(s).

But there are certainly companies out there that actually care about the welfare of their employees. Usually family owned and such.

That's where I choose to work and they have always taken care of my needs and listened to me.

I never really understood why people have such a desire to work for these big companies that don't care about you. I guess it's just different strokes...

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#609

Post by gopher2000 »

dodiggity32 wrote: post #511
throwaway_iusa wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work remotely for a big US company and I have heard talk of similar plans within the company, offshoring entire products' engineering work to India. Luckily my work is very niche (vuln research). I can only imagine the subpar and vulnerability ridden code we'll be seeing over the next few years from all the offshoring + irresponsible overusage of AI tools.

Why would the code be subpar? Is a google employee in US somehow more competent than the one in India? What you are thinking about was outsourcing which is very different than Google hiring in India. Just because you are paid more you are not a ‘better’ programmer

> Is a google employee in US somehow more competent than the one in India?

Broadly speaking, I would argue yes.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#610

Post by rvrs »

closeparen wrote: post #595
oaiey wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the individual layoff which is the issue for the people. It is the general feeling that the little man get squeezed under the argument of cost savings and the rich man takes out even more than the year before, independent of the market and company performance. In the past the entrepreneur took the yearly risks and was rewarded or not for it. The variation / risk on the (unrealistic) return is now managed on…

By any reasonable metric, Google SWEs are "the rich man" in American society.

This isn't the right way to view it -- it's not necessarily about a dollar amount. People making 6 figures and people making 5 figures are not enemies. The segmentation is between those tho provide work and those who perform it, with the former profiting off the surplus value provided by the latter
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