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Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

theguardian.com

601–610 of 903 posts

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Hamas' explicit genocidal goals, I think we can expect some portion of their strikes will simply aim to maximize Jewish deaths, even as others may target specific military assets. See for example Russia's recent Hroza strike ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hroza_missile_attack ), which killed 59 at a memorial service. Hamas can't really do strikes like that today; they would just miss with overwhelming probabil…

The Iskander missile has a 1500lb warhead. Compare the number of deaths it causes to the number of deaths a single unguided Israeli bomb causes in Gaza when it hits a populated building, and you will soon realize that the guidance is not the determining factor here, it's just the mass of explosives.

24000 bombs dropped and hamas says 20000 dead. That's less than 1 bomb per death.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#602
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a flamewar when you and PG, as it happens on a weekly basis, disagree with the comment :)

Then I must disagree with everybody, as I moderate comments from all sides of these. Anyone who looks fairly through my posting history can see that for themselves. Everyone with strong feelings on a topic feels like the mods are secretly against their view and moderating in favor of the other side [1]. I think it's because we're all hard-wired to notice the things we dislike and to weight them much more heavily [2].…

Honestly Dang, just from casual browsing and happening across your "dont do this" responses, it does seem like you chaotically jump in. I can't discern a specific pattern, other than it being a bit too quick on the draw. But that's maybe just me being more okay with flamey discussions.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#603

Are you saying that changes on Israel's part could cause Hamas to stop their aggression? That seems very unlikely - Hamas doesn't even pretend to be open to peaceful coexistence with Israel. Their best offer was a 10-year ceasefire in exchange for 1967 borders. Or that it could lead to Gazans overthrowing Hamas? It's possible, but it would take a violent rebellion since Hamas doesn't hold elections, and realistically…

> would probably take generations for sentiment to change It will likely take forever unless steps are taken to initiate a peace process.

Honestly I'm not sure how we can start a peace process after the terrorist atrocities that were committed?

At this point I think the best is to just evacuate all Palestinians to the rest of the Arab countries as refugees and then just leave the contested territory as unoccupied and "dmz" like for both sides.

And honestly where tf is the UN in all of this?

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#604
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok so a large human rights group calling it apartheid isn't enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0&ab_channel=Amnes... or the case where a 13 year oldboy was raped in prison and the IDF labelle dthe group trying to document and report it a terrorist organization? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnH61RvX-VQ&ab_channel=Daizy... > Sounds a bit ad-hominem I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm stating th…

> ok so a large human rights group calling it apartheid isn't enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0&ab_channel=Amnes ... Although this is a common perception, just the fact a human rights group declares something doesn't make it so. I have to remind you that you live in a world where the UN Human Rights council chair is a country where they publicly hang gay people on cranes and rapes women in prisons. C…

> Although this is a common perception, just the fact a human rights group declares something doesn't make it so.

ok so I guess amnesty international isn't a good source on if something is an apartheid by your logic?

> Case in point, Lebanon is a country where you cannot become president by law if you're not born from a specific Christian sect. This is a country where ethnic discrimination is codified into laws (and of course Palestinians don't have voting rights). This is closer to what you deem apartheid, yet Amnesty did not make a fancy video about that.

fair point. on the other hand, my tax dollars aren't' funding that discrimination. wheres my tax dollars ARE paying for the palestinian genocide. and yes, 15000 dead with the majority of them being under 18 is genocide. There's enough names to put up a large monument.

> I'm sorry, I completely believe you it happened, however this is missing tons of context.

the video I linked explains a good chunk of the context. it was compelling enough for the US state department to take the allegations seriously and forward the information to the israeli government. their response was to confiscate the computers and classify the the reporting party as a terrorist organization.

FOG of war? they were shirtless and loudly screaming in hebrew as confirmed by many sources. at the very least they could have been apprehended. It was considered a mistake only in that they weren't' palestinians. I haven't' even mentioned the number of journalist "accidentally killed." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V4zG_UkIdc&ab_channel=Middl...)

I mean... this is all pretty damning.

you call it circumstantial and anecdotal but there's a LOT of it. They've even gone so far as to label literal children of holocaust survivors "antisemitic" for speaking out against this genocide. (google it)

I know I probably won't be able to change your mind no matter what I show you. but there are very real reasons antizionism is growing in the world. The only solution that doesn't make israel evil will be to grant palestinians citizenship and equality under the law and let them live in israel alongside jews. abandon this whole ethnostate garbage.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#605

This post was flagged, but I don't think it should have been and I hope it stays up. I have been grateful that HN hasn't had the same level of animosity about the conflict in Gaza as other places on the internet. But this news article is about a core issue in tech, and should be discussed on HN. The whole world now uses social media to communicate, which means that when there's a war, partisans of both sides will be…

> this news article is about a core issue in tech

I agree. Let's assume that a Social-Media Business (SMBiz) gains sufficient value from hosting topical discussion to want to continue. But there is cost, reputational risk, and lawyers are expensive. How can SMBiz effectively moderate a conversation/debate/flamewar about a controversial event or subject, especially when the SMbiz wants to maximise user engagement while respecting laws and government requests?

Like it or not, that's the business reality. People who want a truly neutral discussion platform that operates with transnational freedom and total personal freedom will find that their ideals alone are not enough to sustain the business.

Prior Art: People often say that HN's Dang and Slashdot's moderation system are the best examples of "effective moderation" that we know. If the moderation is effective, it means SMBiz is attentive to topics and comments and discussion is insightful and interesting; it isn't overwhelmed by frivolity, falsehoods, defamation, and death threats (FFDDs). If the job is done well, SMBiz may even receive accolades. See Reddit's recent experience with its moderators for a negative example.

Here are some of the rules that will need to be applied, in stochastic FIFO order. Items are lettered for reference.

a= At all times, keep a clear eye on the business equation. Effective moderation will have a significant cost. At any scale!

b= Seed the discussion with verified accounts/users. Reputation must be earned and maintained. See Prior Art.

c= Rate limiting, especially for controversial topics. No short, stupid Reddit posts. People must weigh their words. Sometimes, the microphone must be disabled.

d= No flamewars, no propaganda, no falsehoods. See Prior Art. Lock any discussion that achieves high FFDDs. Throw away accounts, ban offenders. Make it sting.

e= No anonymity unless a verified account/user has sufficient reputation to post in anonymous mode. But it costs in ReputationCoin.

f= No bots, no bridages. See Prior Art to estimate workload and infrastructure.

g= Enable and reward trusted moderators. See Prior Art.

= = = Final Notes

> My engineer brain wants to solve this

I get that you are very interested in the Moderation Problem, but I think this wording wins no support. Backers will say that you are way out of your social depth, and people in the debate will dismiss your intent as naivety or bike-shedding (frivolous or misplaced optimisation) or a combination of the two.

One important reason why HN succeeds because Dan G (who is indeed attentive, and principled) rejects the most ungovernable type of conversation: flamewars.

> convincingly show moderation neutrality on a topic like this

There is no neutrality, of course. SMBiz can state its bias and interests clearly. But it will be hard to make a profit from achieving neutrality because strident factions in polarised debate do not want neutrality.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's correct to classify this particular instance as either left- or right-wing; additionally, misinformation should be censored. From the article: >Examples it cites include content originating from more than 60 countries, mostly in English, and all in “peaceful support of Palestine, expressed in diverse ways”. Even HRW’s own posts seeking examples of online censorship were flagged as spam This issue se…

Supporting Palestine is generally a left-wing view (proof: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views... ). So Meta is censoring a mostly left-wing viewpoint.

[flagged]

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#607

This is something people have to relearn over and over again. A lot of the people who are not upset with Meta limiting opinions and content related to the war in Gaza¹. Were gloating and happy when Meta limited opinions and content from right wing politicians² not so long ago. Once you invite censorship for content you dont like, how can you expect it wont bite you in the ass later on. This is why freedom of speech i…

I used to believe this, but the sad reality of modern society is that the current "meta" is suppressing viewpoints that damage society from your point of view, and if you decide not to play the meta by, say, opting for carte blanche free speech, others who have damaging views that actively harm your position will embrace this "meta" instead and YOUR views will eventually be suppressed (see Karens flooding local schoo…

>The sad reality of modern society is that the current "meta" is suppressing viewpoints that damage society from your point of view,

My viewpoint is freedom of speech regardless of my opinion of it, or yours.

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” ― George Orwell

> If you decide not to play the meta by, say, opting for carte blanche free speech, others who have damaging views that actively harm your position will embrace this "meta"

My viewpoint is freedom of speech regardless of my opinion of it, or yours. If people express viewpoints I do not agree with I will fight for their right to say it. That is what freedom of speech means.

Which is why ACLU defended a Nazi group´s right to protest.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” ― S.G. Tallentyre, The Friends of Voltaire

I dont care who is doing the burning, nor why they are doing it. People burning or banning books is the antithesis of freedom of speech. Something I clearly reject.

>. It's an arms race of who can control the dialogue and get their views in front of the most eyeballs, unfortunately, and if you fail to see it that way, you will lose. In the face of fascism, restraint in the name of principles make you weaker than the fascist.

You appear to advocate that your opinion of the world must be the true opinion, and thus, needs to be enforced and dissent silenced lest our nation becomes "facist"¹

This means that you become the arbiter of what is truth and what is not. What is harmfull or not. Or yu delegate this ot the state, or to private corporations or all of the above. That is the definition of an autocracy in my opinion.

You would probably be more comfortable in Saudi Arabia where dissent is dealt with in a proactive manner.

“I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an ass of yourself.” -- Oscar Wilde

¹ https://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#608
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you really understand why it's an hateful speech when you wish my country stop to exists?

Unfortunately, wishing for the ceasing-of-existence of an apartheid state is considered justified by most of the world.

> Unfortunately, wishing for the ceasing-of-existence of an apartheid state is considered justified by most of the world.

Any reason other than hyperbole that you consider Israel to be an apartheid state, as compared to the rest of the Arab countries?

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#609
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jews aren't treated worst than others in Muslim countries by these standards. They don't treat Hindus and Shintoism better.

That's not true, it's much worse being jews. Christians are the most tolerated, followed by everyone else and then at last it's jews

Proof?

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#610

Interestingly if you read the actual report from HRW, it sounds like most of the material they are referring too was legitimately taken down because it supported violence, according to Meta's policies. For example, the phrase "from the river to the see" is considered hateful by many, so it was taken down. In other cases the content praised attacks by Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization by the US go…

I have no problem taking down "From the river to the sea" type content so long as we also take down Greater Israel type content.

Having social media companies attempting to guess at the intention behind ambiguous phrases seems like a bad idea.

Some people are certainly implying support for genocide when they say "from the river to the sea", while others are not. Same for "Greater Israel".

The only sane place to draw the line imo is at explicit support for hatred or violence. Even that standard can be fuzzy, but if there's a reasonable doubt about intent, I don't think we want corporations or governments making those judgments.

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