Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#601

Post by woah » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:34 PM UTC

stjo wrote: post #414

liendolucas wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it is that you're supposed to own the car and every feature you paid for it.

I could give companies a pass for features that require continuous maintenance from them, like remote unlock (properly secured servers). But there was a car company that tried to sell you your own seat warmers, which definitely crosses my barrier.

The seats get warm by running Javascript single page apps which need to be served from the servers, and frequently updated by the company's front end developers to use newer frameworks that make them get even hotter

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#602

Post by kibwen » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:35 PM UTC

Zetice wrote: post #30

HWR_14 wrote: post #2

Good. People who buy things should own the things they buy.

Okay great, but now the lowest cost of the car is an extra $10k because the manufacturing just got a lot more complicated as a result of not being able to build every car the same way.

This is naive. Tesla isn't selling the base model below cost. If they did, then Tesla would be wiped out unless people shelled out for the extras, because they'd be losing money on every car sold.

Instead, what's happening is that the current price fully reflects the cost of production, and holding the extras hostage is pure gravy.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#603

Post by Tangurena2 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:36 PM UTC

liendolucas wrote: post #348

> Software-locked features that need to be activated by the owner paying or subscribing to a service are becoming increasingly popular in the auto industry. Sorry, WHAT? People should absolutely boycott companies that try to squeeze bucks in this miserable way.

Every car manufacturer is planning to do this. Not enough people protested when this category of features first came out.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#604

Post by bastardoperator » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:38 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #460

bastardoperator wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people don't want to pay for a 4th bedroom. Turns out the builder found it cheaper to just include the extra bedroom rather than differentiate on blueprints. What's the big deal? The ability to change your mind and increase your mortgage without having to deal with construction in the future seems like a nice bonus. Everyone wins. Cars are property. It would be absurd to think portions of my property are off lim…

Aside from the significant associated increase in maintenance costs on e.g. the roof that would come with such an option, I bet you the market would be fine with that. Stamp out houses that are all alike except some have less bedrooms enabled. Hell, offer the extra bedroom capacity as a rental option. If the customer only paid for 1 bedroom, they're going to save a lot of money. It's the extra maintenance costs of th…

You think builders are going to create rooms people might not buy and not pass off the cost to the buyers, or development company? You have more faith in companies or maybe builders than I do.

Also, how will you keep me out of the room in my house that I didn't buy? You can't effectively.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#605

Post by Tangurena2 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:39 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #518

bigmofo wrote: post #513

I would have thought that EFF and FSF would be more active in trying to promote open source in automobiles for privacy, security and being able to repair and modify the vehicle. I would think that it would be rather mind blowing how much information is gathered by the new vehicles about oneself. I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, security and safety reasons. (I consider drive…

Sooner or later, some city is going to be held for ransom by a group that has disabled (or hijacked) all of the Teslas in it. "Give us a king's ransom or your roads will be clogged with immovable cars, and thus unusable, for weeks". Right now, there are not enough software-hijackable cars on the road for this to work, but that is changing. Once you have a critical mass of perhaps even just 5% of the cars, you can bri…

Something close happened with a used-car dealership where every car got a remote immobilizer added in order to make repossession easier. One ex-employee logged into the system and locked up every car, including cars that were paid off or had been sold to unsuspecting customers.

https://www.theregister.com/2010/03/18/repo_man_hack/

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#606

Post by gonzo41 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:40 PM UTC

pests wrote: post #538

culi wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're joking, but there's a whole genre of "adversarial fashion"[0][1] dedicated to making clothing that spams these sort of public data recognition services. Hoodies with license plates, face masks with weird facial features, etc. Often optimized against actual neural networks too [0] https://adversarialfashion.com/ [1] https://www.capable.design/

Gait detection renders any of this obsolute sadly.

And cost at scale renders gait detection detection and most face detection at scale useless. The sexy movie detection methods all suck.

Go with what works. Just id people via their phones with a dirtbox.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#607

Post by m463 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:45 PM UTC

edude03 wrote: post #545

eschneider wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case 2 definitely has happened.

Here's a solid example - in 2016 all teslas came with free supercharging for life. In 2017 they changed it to be non transferable. If you buy the car directly from someone tesla won't know but there has been cases where they've found out (warranty repairs for example) where tesla then removed it. If the seller didn't tell the buyer, or the seller themselves didn't know - who's fault is that?

supercharging for life is a service.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#608

Post by GuB-42 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:46 PM UTC

fluoridation wrote: post #471

GuB-42 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the entire point. They design a "luxury" car to be sold at a luxury price, with high margins. But by doing so, they go above budget for many potential customers. So they make a cheaper version, with lower margins, but they deliberately cheapen the experience so that those who can afford the "luxury" version don't buy the "cheap" version instead.

If you want to sell a cheaper version then actually make that cheaper version. Don't sell the exact same version with the switch locked in the off position by a logic puzzle and then sell the solution for an exorbitant price. Hell, make a single version and physically break the feature at the factory. Remove a critical component. Anything but this bullshit.

Sometime it is simpler and cheaper to just lock the switch. It depends on how the manufacturing is done. In some cases (maybe not with Tesla) the feature is there but it may be defective. Sometimes it is worth making a completely different "cheap" version.

In any case, it shouldn't change anything for the end user, hardware or software, you pay a premium for premium features. And even if it involves actual hardware, it will cost you a lot more than what the part is worth. That's how manufacturers target both the premium and budget market with the same product. I think it benefits most people in the end, especially on the "cheap" side since people can get something they wouldn't be able to afford at all otherwise, at the cost of a bit of luxury.

Now, you can get smart, buy the cheap version and hack the software, or install much cheaper third party hardware. Same idea as ink refills for printers, or ad-blocking ad-supported websites. Often, that's you right, but don't expect the manufacturer to play along, you are on your own.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#609

Post by Libcat99 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:51 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #98

theluketaylor wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…

I feel different about extra cores on a CPU than I do about heated seats. The manufacturing price delta between an 8 core CPU and a 16 core, nowadays is functionally meaningless. The manufacturing cost between a car with heated seats and without headset seats is functioningaflly meaningful. The way I see it, for things like heated seats or CarPlay, I'm already paying for the base hardware cost (plus some margin) as p…

At the time I worked on the IBM hardware, these were not cores that were disabled by default.

They were entire cpus in sockets.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#610

Post by Tangurena2 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 11:51 PM UTC

elmomle wrote: post #144

shmatt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you opt out of the heated seat package when you purchase the car, that doesn't mean the manufacturer can't add that hardware in a disabled state. That also doesn't mean you own the heating feature after you opted out That's like asking Intel to fix a processor you overclocked

Here's an analogy: the year is 1950. I bought a car and a radio is built in. But I didn't pay the extra radio fee, so a wire is intentionally left out and the radio does not work. But the car is mine--I could choose to scrap it, radio hardware and all; I owe the company nothing, and I am the owner of a car with a nearly-functional radio. Then how could somebody object to my going in and fixing the radio, if it is my…

Back then, the dealer would remove the radio before handing the car over to you. In its place would be a panel blocking the hole in the dashboard.

I used to work for a radio shop, and it was reasonably common for us to remove the radio when customers did not want it in their new car. Some wanted to have no radio for religious reasons, some businesses wanted the absolute cheapest vehicle possible for their employees, most wanted to install their own aftermarket radio.