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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

601–610 of 684 posts

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#601
post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

Allowing Rich kids in. THISSSSSSS!!!! is what it was always about. It amazes me how corrupt higher education is now. It is AMAZINGLY corrupt. There is this thing with getting old (I'm in late 40s now) where you think the world is going to hell, but really what is happening is that you are figuring out EXACTLY how fucked up everything is. However, sometimes things really are going to hell (increasing rich/poor divide,…

It is not about rich kids. It is about diversity, they want different skin color in addition to Whites' and Asians'.

Asians mostly come from poor families compared to west. Here is distribution of test scores and Asians have top scores.

https://twitter.com/monitoringbias/status/163214392094241587...

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#602
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a poor Asian immigrant family, and this SAT shit seems wild. My parents always told me that America is an easy country to succeed in. Just do decently in school, ace the SAT, and boom full ride to a upper middle class life, no matter the background. Its proven pretty true so far.

This is what puzzles me. What is the intent of the SAT, is it to assess aptitude for something? Is that something the desire to achieve good grades? Is it intelligence? Is it the aptitude to fire guns in a tank? For sure if you have a test that tests something, then you assign outcomes based on that assessment, then anyone has the opportunity to understand what is being assessed and practice until they are good, but…

It's supposed to test a combination of intelligence and work ethic, and it does an OK job at that compared to everything else while being the hardest thing for established and/or wealthy students to game.

> I'm still struggling to see how that benefits the poor or the migrants in general

Maybe there can be a better way, but today the options are SAT or no SAT. How can a smart, poor student who goes to a bad high school (e.g. my dad fleeing Iran) stand out other than the SAT?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#603
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I take offense at this "it is all a matter of opinion and all opinions are equally valid" BS. 1) It is trivially true that if you define your measure right, you can make anyone succeed. For example black people are better at looking like black people. But we try to define "stuff" in a way that correlates with ability to do economically useful tasks. There are excellent reasons to do so. 2) You are ignoring…

I doubt the funding for black and white students really differs that much. You can find many articles claiming this but a lot of this seems to depend how you count and who is counting. The washington post or NYT will run an article claiming huge gaps, while the heritage foundation says it is broadly equal ( https://www.heritage.org/education/report/the-myth-racial-di... ). Some of the best funded schools in the whole…

In California they certainly do. Schools are mostly funded locally. As a result, there are very large funding gaps. And it isn't just liberal media saying it, https://reason.org/commentary/californias-schools-are-failin... says the same. I can't speak to other states.

That said, there are a lot of ways to throw money at a problem and produce very little in the way of results. The education establishment is very, very good at it.(That would be a rant for another day - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34634210 for a flavor.)

And about crime, the issue of targeting by police is not necessarily the neighborhood, but the person. When police see someone "who doesn't look like they belong", that person gets targeted. As a result black people in affluent neighborhoods get stopped a lot more than white people in the same neighborhoods. So even if black and white kids are doing bad things in similar amounts, the blacks are going to get arrested for it at a far higher rate.

This is not just a random conspiracy theory. See https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/study-ra... for an example of research on racial disparities of how policing is done in Los Angeles. Many other cities have similar problems.

That the problem is not just limited to one bad police department is shown by a simple statistics. In surveys, blacks and whites do illegal drugs at similar rates. But blacks are arrested and charged for that at several times the rate that whites are. And so the arrest and jail statistics make it look like blacks are doing far more drugs than whites. But our best evidence is arrest records are a very severely racially biased sample of what is actually happening.

That said, I'm mostly in agreement with you on affirmative action. But there is one data point that shows a flaw in your argument. It is easy to argue that policies that helped a half-Kenyan kid get into Columbia for undergraduate and Harvard for law school won't help American blacks very much. But Barack Obama went on to become the first black US President. And the symbolism of that seems to be very important for inspiring US blacks in general. So even though it doesn't seem to me like it should matter, in practice it seems to have.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#604
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an urban myth perpetuated by people interested in generalized grievance. At least from the period I attended prep school, and beyond. From the mid-1990's. Almost in-total, the "old boys" applicants are not under-qualified. When compared to almost any kid that attended lesser secondary schools than the privileged kid attended, on average. These kids have almost always proven themselves in elite educational envi…

Is it an urban myth? We can look at former presidents like George who attended Yale with a 1200 SAT and a 2.5 HS GPA.

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#605
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your idea of societal progress is one that believes all history is worth looking down on, that there's nothing in the past worth celebrating because every figure acted distasteful or had views distasteful to modern eyes? I guess all of human civilization has just been a giant failure. The only chance we have is for us poor wretches to retroactively flagellate our ancestors and beg forgiveness from the gods of mode…

I read Cato, but I have never respected him. I admire Churchill for his contribution to victory in WWII and his excellent playing of a weak hand, but he was a hideous human being for a lot to answer for. I have nothing but contempt for Jefferson Davis. Yes, I even consider the Nazis terrible people no matter how widespread antisemitism was at the time and no matter how much public support they had. I have that view s…

I guess you shouldn't go too far back in history then. If that's how you judge the average Nazi party member (as in the regular Nazi on the street at the time), I imagine you think every Swede during the time of the Vikings was correspondingly a terrible person. And every Frank, Mongol, Arab, Indian, Slav, and... yeah pretty much everyone back in the day. Cato included. With the whole world being so fundamentally morally terrible it's a wonder any good people managed to come into existence in the last 20 years to be the woke arbiters of morality for all past and future action.

The uncomfortable truth is that any of us, genetically unchanged but raised in post WWI Germany would most likely be Nazis during WWII.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#606
post #7
post #2

The only reason I was able to break into programming was because of high standardized test scores. The SAT and others like it really are a great equalizer. Dropping the requirement is a shame.

Sorry, but what do you mean? If you said any other career except programming I'd agree with this, but programming is literally the least gate-kept of the high-paying careers. Anyone can break into programming, all you need is the internet, interest and aptitude to understand code.

It is the least gate-kept, but it's still gate-kept. The higher-paying SWE jobs all want a college degree and have an blatant preference for new college grads. You can get such a job without a degree, but it's much harder than getting into college in the first place.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#607

Maybe I'm old or insufficiently woke, but I don't see legacy or identity as substitutes for demonstrated learning. I see the decay of rigor and achievement as signals of decline of excellence and the crumbling of knowledge. The mythology of "everyone needs degrees" created a wealth transfer scam and a lowering of standards to sell more student loan debt for sheepskins. Maybe we need to throw away arbitrary employment…

They want legacy because they care about treating their alumni well for donations.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Legacy” applicants is the opposite of woke, it’s been how the “old boys network” has run for hundreds of years, getting under qualified students into top Universities.

That's an urban myth perpetuated by people interested in generalized grievance. At least from the period I attended prep school, and beyond. From the mid-1990's. Almost in-total, the "old boys" applicants are not under-qualified. When compared to almost any kid that attended lesser secondary schools than the privileged kid attended, on average. These kids have almost always proven themselves in elite educational envi…

I also went to an elite prep school except it was the 2010s. You're right that the kids there prove themselves. The top ~15% of students there would have found the top universities under-challenging, except maybe MIT. The top 50% would've been on par.

But guess who got into the top private universities from that prep school, not the top students. Most were legacy, donor families, or really crafty liars. So overall I would consider the prep school kids going into top private schools under-qualified (public unis are different), though not exactly because they're from prep school.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#609
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating out confounders is easier said than done. When you look at the performance of black people raised in white families they are still exposed to media, teachers, and peers who have expectations of them based on appearance. Even with that population, racism remains a confounder. Likewise while you can look at historical Jews as a poor population with high IQ, you have the confounder that even then Jews placed…

Culture largely flows from genetics, so I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.

If culture flowed from genetics, then we would not expect to see the very large cultural shifts that history documents time and again in rather short periods of time.

For example from the middle ages to the present, individual self-control greatly increased and this caused homicide rates to drop by a factor of 10. See https://www.vrc.crim.cam.ac.uk/system/files/documents/manuel... for verification.

Elizabethan England was incredibly bawdy by all accounts. And yet the same country a few centuries later was Victorian England, one of the most sexually uptight societies on record. Genetics didn't change that much, how did that happen?

Germany from the mid-1800s through WW 2 was one of the most warlike societies imaginable. Germany since has turned into a country of peaceniks with no interest in invading anyone, and who are unable to even cough up what they promised for self-defense. How did that happen?

The truth is that while factors from genetics to parasites like toxoplasma can impact culture, culture changes far too rapidly to be dismissed as simply an outcome of genetics.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#610
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magnet programs operating from kindergarten on are one possible solution. The problem is that these programs are being effectively phased out because less-astute normals are insulted that everyone doesn't qualify. Which is the inverse precise equivalent of eliminating special ed programs.

Most criticism I've heard of them is that they suck up a disproportionate amount of funding.

"Suck up"? I went to magnet elementary school. There were more art and music teachers.

The average additional expenditure per pupil for magnet schools is $200/year out of $12.5k.

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