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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#601
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.

I grew up with a number of rosaries. I would have to bring them into my Catholic grade school and then we'd walk to the church on campus and spend the next hour reciting rote verses and trying to keep track of where I was on the rosary. Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Rosaries are almost sacred.

I bought a rosary when I visited Italy [1]. Never believed in God myself, but the memorabilia is sick.

[1] For a cousin-in-law's son's christening in an extremely old Church. Super cool.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural artifacts are still only speaking to specific aspects of culture. Punk doesn't speak to all aspects of all cultures for example.

Indeed, but for counter culture, I think the artifacts are kind of important, as it communicates your involvement inside that culture. It is kind of hard to imagine punk without the music, the cloths, the hairstyles, the graffiti, etc. Sure it is also hard to imagine punk without the Anarchy, but if you think of early punks, with their heavy drinking and male dominant behavior, and compare it to modern punk which tho…

Sure, monarchists literally have the monarchy, prison abolitionists have a wide variety of songs/books/icons, etc. I don't understand what you're trying to differentiate.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people have the same political view about LGBTQI+ anyway Even in the anglosphere this isn't true. Those with differing views mostly keep silent. But get them in private or anonymously (e.g. a fellow train passenger) and a wide variety of views emerge.

> But get them in private or anonymously (e.g. a fellow train passenger) and a wide variety of views emerge. A truly stunning diversity of views and opinions… but pretty much all of them agree with the idea that everyone should be entitled to basic decency. Most of the differences I've observed are attributable to differences in personal experience (e.g. subject-matter knowledge, perception of the consensus of others…

> I do mourn a little, that people feel they can't be open about their views. If we talked to each other more, I think we'd find we agree about more than we disagree. (Then again, the things we do openly talk about seem to be highly polarising topics; I know not what causes what.)

I agree, and have often said the same thing. As the old saying goes, people tend to judge others by their actions, and themselves by their intentions. What the vast majority of us really want is happiness and health for ourselves, our families, and our communities. It's easy to have a civil disagreement with somebody when you keep in mind that they really do mean the best, but cynicism has taken over a lot of peoples' mental images of each other.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one needs to change the way they act around you. This is only because Catholics and Christians often don’t mention when workplace behaviors make them uncomfortable. I’ve been in multiple situations where coworkers have used names of God as expletives or made jokes about things I consider holy. And if you’re a Catholic and “trad” and planning lunch with colleagues, things like “is it Friday” or “is it a Friday in…

Abstinence is a form of penance. Frankly if the office doesn't bend over backwards for your self-flagellation every week I'm OK with it. Are you demanding that the entire office fast with you if they can't find a pescatarian option?

You missed the point: if I’m planning lunch with my friends and they want to go to barbecue on Friday, I’m going to be suggesting an alternative so I can get something to eat too. Just like we had to plan lunches around my Jain, Jewish and Muslim coworkers dietary restrictions.

So, in fact, some people will have to do something different to include me in some of their activities.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#605

I am old enough to remember the hippies and related counterculture(s). (I was very young.) This is something to keep in mind: the counterculture then was a place where people made a living. And the cost of living was cheap. You could raise kids on an organic farm, sell in the local alternative stores, have a live show on pirate radio. And pay your modest bills. Health insurance and college tuition was cheap. Jeez --…

Part of that, in turn, is the slow death of the American working class. This is a much harsher society economically. That is why you step over bodies in San Francisco's Tenderloin. It wasn't like that when I moved here (early 80's).

But why are you surprised? The hippies pushed free love and drug use. The inevitable end result was more children without stable families and drug addiction. When you step over those bodies you are stepping over the fruits of the hippy ideal.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

If you are unsure of what he meant, try and explicitly advocate for "majority white, straight, Christian(ish)" people in the same way every other group gets to do in america and see how it goes. And if your knee jerk reaction is to say "well only a racist white nationalist would do that", you have proved my point, and you are using the same fallacious reasoning that leads to people thinking that all gay rights advoca…

Advocating for those in power doesn't carry the same reasoning as advocating for those who are not in power so it is not the same type of fallacious reasoning you claim.

Edit: I removed my second sentence since it appears to be confusing others of my tone and intention.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#607
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are the people who support Good Things. Therefore, anyone who opposes us is ipso facto supporting Bad Things.

Enter the Ronald Reagan presidential campaign, stage right

I can't find the citation, but legend has it that as CA governor, Reagan was in his limo, and was surrounded by protestors in Berkeley. They were chanting "We are the future!" while pounding on the windows of the car.

Reagan got his notepad out, and wrote "If you are the future, I'm selling all my stocks!" on a sheet of paper, and held it up to the window for them to read.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. Then it’s worth considering why the prevailing culture at the time didn’t see it that way.

It's worth noting that the antiwar movement had less in common with hippies than many people think. Sure, there was some overlap - but the mainstream didn't get the idea that hippies were mainly interested in taking drugs and listening to music from nowhere. Most of the antiwar movement was in the hands of students and everday sorts of people - I think the fastest way to offer evidence for that would be the absence of typical hippie uniforms in photographs of antiwar protests. Something closer to the truth would be that the musicians hippies liked listening to made songs about the antiwar movement, and those songs had an outsized impact on the entertainment available in 2020, because as good a speaker as Noam Chomsky might have been, radio hosts don't put him on after The Temptations.

(I'd listen to a station that did that kind of thing, but that's not how it works presently.)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#609
post #159

Most definitions of a counterculture are about the entry of an alternative culture into the mainstream. Those conditions only exist when widespread cultural change is about to happen. Before, the mainstream culture is not opposed by a single large countercultural bloc; after, the mainstream culture has integrated the counterculture. The slow centralisation of the reins of culture into a handful of institutions goes b…

> we don't have a 21st century hippy equivalent

Today's counter-culture won't be identified somewhere on the left-right spectrum, or be found in the struggle for mass media attention. Which was basically the hippies.

The truly dominating force today is the weight of our technological environment. The actual physical things. The actual algorithms of the bureaucracies. The world doesn't "feel" the same. It actual "is" the same. To our senses.

The counter cultural movements are the ones that reject submission to technology. Cyclists stand up to the car (the actual thing). Homeschoolers threaten the processes of the school district (the actual bureaucracy). In the mainstream, the driver submits to the car, the redshirter submits to the bureaucracy.

All the rest; music you listen to, political opinions you hold, movies you see, books you read, sexual disposition. It is completely irrelevant because they do not challenge technological foundations. For the hippies, those were anchors since culture still attached much value to say e.g. artistic expression. But today, culture is not defined by those.

That is also why much of this discussion is actually about the premise, we can't even recognize counterculture. We're looking in the wrong places. A boomer certainly won't recognize it. Music is more diverse than ever, and the big networks don't define culture.

But to be sure: death metal is not counterculture. That just gets co-opted in a headphone ad or whatever. Instead, those cyclists who are now doing critical mass events, they are laying the foundations of a future in which the past will be unrecognizable. Death metal hobbyist lay the foundation for nothing but more niche consumption.

I'm somewhat joking with that last example, but even so. Look at dominant technology (physical or procedural), as concrete and specific as you can make it. What is in opposition of _that_, that is counter culture.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even Raytheon changes their logo to a rainbow version And you think weapon manufacturers are sincerely concerned about discrimination and human rights in general? Mainstream culture has been co-opting countercultures since decades. There are even words like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing . Music genres like punk, rock, rap etc have been watered down i…

I know they don't care about it. That's the point. They don't care about it but they do it, because it's socially expected that they do it, because it's mainstream. If being green was counterculture, greenwashing would have the opposite of the intended effect.

So co-opting something and making it truly mainstream is the same thing?

Then greenwhashing is real ecology?

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