“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#601

Post by the_omegist » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #591

drekipus wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence. What is "results in violence" though? One person's violence would be another person's justice. I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. Would research in allowing transgenderism for children be considered violence or not in your eyes? I'm sure t…

> I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone? I mean, i think most people are going to dismiss you as crazy if you think words and ideas of any form are equivalently violent to shooting someone in the head. At the very least you would need to back up such a radical proposition with some very compelling arguments.

Then perhaps you should be a little less materialist? Psychological violence can be more terrible than physical violence.

And ideologies caused more damages and deaths in history than any conventional "war".

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#602

Post by winReInstall » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

bglazer wrote: post #485

This is in Nature Human Behavior. This is a social science/psychology journal, a field which is suffering from the reproducibility crisis, perhaps worse than any other field. So, any result in this field should be viewed with significant skepticism. This is true for research into population group differences, and extremely true for IQ research into race, which is almost hopelessly noisy and confounded. It is a simple…

Now, imagine, real good research (Data-mining/AB-virtual-experiments) being done, with FG cooperate DBs containing the behaviour of almost all of western humanity. One can imagine the bombshells on which Google and Facebook (and others with acccess Palantir) are sitting quietly right now.

And while the racists and ideologists might use parts of the results to go at each others throats, the truth might even be more weird, turning humanity into a fully self aware grandfather clock, knowing what makes it tick, but unable to stop it.

The fact that Thiel just looked at it, and went full support of totalitarian decline, cause it can not be prevented anyway, gives you an idea on how total of a defeat through knowledge awaits in those DBs.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#603

Post by yes_really » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:48 AM UTC

10 years ago, if someone said that "woke" people got control of institutions and are censoring science that goes against their ideology, I would think that person is crazy. Right now, they even publish manifestos explicitly stating they will be censoring science if it goes against (woke) advocacy groups' ideologies.

Now the crazy person is not the guy denouncing the woke people marching through institutions. It is the guy that sees all this madness in the world and pretends it is not happening.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#604

Post by the_omegist » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:48 AM UTC

rhcom2 wrote: post #582

drekipus wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence. What is "results in violence" though? One person's violence would be another person's justice. I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. Would research in allowing transgenderism for children be considered violence or not in your eyes? I'm sure t…

> "trans activism with kids" What does this even mean? Medical care?

I guess promoting and using kids with psychological problems as icons for the ideology...

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#605

Post by JanneVee » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:50 AM UTC

n4r9 wrote: post #108

There is a very clear trend in the HN crowd's reaction to this statement, so I'm inclined to offer a defense. I'm not linked to Nature in any way, just of a rebellious bent. The principle objections to the guidance appear to fall into the following categories: * They threaten the objectivity of science * They prevent the publication of "heretical"/"non-PC" results * They are too vague I strongly recommend that people…

I read through the guidelines. I'm firmly in the camp that the fundamental ideas of the guidelines stem from ideas that deny the existence of objective shared reality. But science is and always has been the pursuit of knowledge of objective shared reality. The guidelines are antithetical to science.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#606

Post by deknos » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:52 AM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #385

"Science", such is my understanding, is a rigorous process to get to the truth of a situation. As such, "Science" has no overlap with concepts such as respect, dignity, or rights. Science exists outside of those concepts in, as my own definition above, it is a search for the truth of a situation without fear nor favour. Objectivity, as pure as possible. Subjectivity; the interpretation of scientific results is where…

funny why do we do no experiments on humans and try to minimize experiments on animals and control it with an ethicsboard if it has no overlap?

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#607

Post by onion2k » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:53 AM UTC

istinetz wrote: post #594

irrational wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I have seen several videos of entirely black crowds looting stores. How is this Trump's fault? How is this "pure white supremacy"?

How is this "pure white supremacy"?

That's an easy one. America has had a couple of centuries of systemic racism keeping majority-black communities poor, uneducated, and not particularly fearful of prison (relative to majority-white communities). When you combine that poverty with an easy opportunity to loot something valuable in a situation where there's a perception of not being caught due to the chaos, people will loot things. There will have been poor white people in the videos you watched, but your biases mean you focused on the black people instead.

That's not a suggestion that you're racist. It's simply that you've grown up in a society where white people are literally considered superior. The white supremacy is all around you. You don't notice it in the same way you don't notice the air you breathe. When someone points it out though, you should probably listen at least, even if you choose not to act.

Also, it's not Trump's fault. It goes back far further than Trump. He's simply a clever grifter who found a way to capitalize on it. His family is the better part of $3bn richer since his presidency...

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#608

Post by DanBC » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:53 AM UTC

drekipus wrote: post #558

bglazer wrote: post #485

This is in Nature Human Behavior. This is a social science/psychology journal, a field which is suffering from the reproducibility crisis, perhaps worse than any other field. So, any result in this field should be viewed with significant skepticism. This is true for research into population group differences, and extremely true for IQ research into race, which is almost hopelessly noisy and confounded. It is a simple…

> This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence. What is "results in violence" though? One person's violence would be another person's justice. I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. Would research in allowing transgenderism for children be considered violence or not in your eyes? I'm sure t…

> Most transgender studies come from the same "reproducibility crisis" and largely the same branch of social/psychology science.

No, this is wrong. A lot of the research into trans healthcare comes from endocrinology, not psychology. Psychologists are not prescribing meds or performing surgery.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#609

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

bglazer wrote: post #485

This is in Nature Human Behavior. This is a social science/psychology journal, a field which is suffering from the reproducibility crisis, perhaps worse than any other field. So, any result in this field should be viewed with significant skepticism. This is true for research into population group differences, and extremely true for IQ research into race, which is almost hopelessly noisy and confounded. It is a simple…

[deleted]

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#610

Post by dissent » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 6:58 AM UTC

pj_mukh wrote: post #559

dissent wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Orwellian bit comes once the quality gates are in place and get subverted for political means. But even if that doesn't happen, I disagree strongly. Extremism doesn't need scientific backing and never has. They'll take it if convenient, but they can quite easily justify their actions without it. Truth and critical thinking are the solution, not the cause.

Extremism doesn’t need scientific backing to exist but it does need scientific backing to make the center complacent. The shooting was a good example but a better example is an extremist takeover of the government buoyed by a complacent public swindled by flimsy science. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again.

Could you not argue that religious teaching should be suppressed since it often stands in opposition to fact, therefore is responsible for misinformation leading to violence? (and let's face it, that's probably pretty hard to argue against)