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What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

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Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#601
post #566
post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you can certainly do big projects. My project[1] spanned 3 departments, and involved dozens of engineers, and required that we work with multiple hard drive vendors (our first two partners for Hybrid SMR were Seagate and WDC) on an entirely new type of HDD, as well as the T10/T13 standards committees so we could standardize the commands that we need to send to these HDD's. So this was all a huge amount of "new sh…

I'm not saying storage didn't do big projects. I'm saying that over time it got calcified and instead of doing proper stack refactoring and delivering features beneficial for customers, it continued to sadly chug along team boundaries. For example: RePD is at just wrong level at all. It should have been at CFS/chunk level and thus benefit other teams as well. BigStore stack is beyond bizarre. For years there were no…

No one asked for a "block device"? Um, that's table stakes because every single OS in the world needs to be able to boot their system, and that requires a block device. Every single cloud system provides a block device because if it wasn't there, customers wouldn't be able to use their VM, and you can sure they would be asking for it. Every single cloud system has also provided from day one something like AWS S3 or GCE's GCS so users can store files. So I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about.

As far as "proper stack refactoring" is concerned, again, the key is to make a business case for why that work is necessary. Tech debt can be a good reason, but doing massive refactoring just because it _could_ help other teams requires much more justification than "it could be beneficial". Google has plenty of storage solutions which work across multiple datacenters / GCE zones, including Google Cloud Storage, Cloud Spanner and Cloud Bigtable. These solutions or their equivalent were available and used internally by teams long befoe they were available as public offerings for Cloud customers. So "we could have done it a different way because it mgiht benefit other teams" is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. Speaking as someone who has worked in storage infrastructure for over a decade, I don't see the calcification you refer to, and there are good reasons why things are done the way that are which go far beyond the current org chart. There have been a huge amount of innovative work done in the storage infrastructure teams.

I will say that the posix/nfs/smb way of doing things is not necessarily the best way to provide lowest possible storage TCO. It may be the most convenient way if you need to lift and shift enterprise workloads into the cloud, sure. But if you are writing software from scratch, or if you are internal Google product team which is using internal storage solutions such as Colossus, BigTable, Spanner, etc., it is much cheaper, especially if you are writing software that must be highly scalable, to use these technologies as opposed to posix/nfs/smb. All cloud providers, Google Cloud included, will provide multiple storage solutions to meet the customer where they are at. But would I recommend that a greenfield application start by relying on NFS or SMB today? Hell, no! There are much better 21st century technologies that are available today. Why start a new project by tying yourself to such legacy systems with all of their attendant limitations and costs?

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure that I or most silicon valley coders making 250k+ can singlehandedly outperform a dozen "decent developers" by pretty much any metric you can pick. I'm not saying we're smarter or innately better, but coding is a tradeskill and the masters of the trade are almost all here. I'm interested to see how much this changes over the next decade, though, since a lot of people have scat…

The absolute hubris of SV people thinking that they can individually perform the jobs of 2-3 competent teams of people at literally any company outside of SV is why a lot of talented people want nothing to do with SV.

And yet, I show up at a company as a consultant and in two weeks I singlehandedly take care of something ten people have been struggling with for a year

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#603
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't quite right. I can see how you reached the conclusion you did, but you're missing a lot of context. For one, developing frontends at the scale and complexity needed for quickly growing organizations is just as complex as backend scaling in a variety of ways. If you're a frontend expert and can operate in the way needed to support a rapidly growing business/product - you can make just as much if not more th…

> This instinct around large-scale abstractions is not developed by building small sites over and over gain. What do you mean by large scale abstractions? Generally, small frontends are different from large frontends. Already because you need to work on a team instead of being able to do it alone. But adding features is a quite orthogonal concern to scaling by the number of users I'd say. There can be extremely compl…

You run into all sorts of bugs you'd never even conceive of when things scale up, even basic frontend code

Some problem that would hit one customer every few years and go away on refresh for a local mom & pop website will irritate thousands of people a day on Google.com, and those people will band together on Facebook into a support group, and that support group will get media coverage

You try to look into the issue and you can't reproduce it at all, you just have to figure it out from tiny wisps of clues

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just save your way out too. I started on the path to FIRE (check out /r/financialindependence on Reddit) about 10 years into my career, and it was a huge quality of life improver Now I'm always sitting on an enormous pile of savings and I have short- and long-term plans to move my career and life forward. It spares me a lot of stress.

This is likely a more "reasonable" path unless you "go into business for yourself" as a plumber or a consultant, neither of which actually makes a salable business. Especially since you only need to keep your expenses 10% lower (or so) than your after-tax income to hit a reasonable target.

Yeah, I looked into it on my own early in my career, and I thought "Damn, I'd have to save two million dollars to live in retirement off 50k a year for forty years"

Turns out the numbers are a lot more favorable, though. You can count on some level of compounding investment growth even after inflation, you can slash your living expenses after you retire, etc. Suddenly early retirement is a possibility even at a pretty modest income level, without compromising your quality of life too much in the mean time

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recessions are by definition a decline in GDP, not a rise in unemployment.

> Recessions are by definition a decline in GDP No, recessions are by definition “significant, widespread, prolonged” declines in economic activity [0] [0] from https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/recession.asp but the three dimensions are, with various terms, common (BLS and NBER use “duration, depth, and diffusion”, CD Howe Institute in Canada uses “pronounced, persistent, and pervasive decline in economic activit…

"decline in economic activity" is a decline in GDP. You're proving my point, not countering it.

Nobody defines a recession as a decline in employment. It's correlated, sure, but not the same thing.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#606
post #601
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying storage didn't do big projects. I'm saying that over time it got calcified and instead of doing proper stack refactoring and delivering features beneficial for customers, it continued to sadly chug along team boundaries. For example: RePD is at just wrong level at all. It should have been at CFS/chunk level and thus benefit other teams as well. BigStore stack is beyond bizarre. For years there were no…

No one asked for a "block device"? Um, that's table stakes because every single OS in the world needs to be able to boot their system, and that requires a block device. Every single cloud system provides a block device because if it wasn't there, customers wouldn't be able to use their VM, and you can sure they would be asking for it. Every single cloud system has also provided from day one something like AWS S3 or G…

> So I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about.

Trust me, I intimately know what I’m talking about.

Without personal jabs, let me explain in a bit more detail:

App in VM (kinda posix) -> ext4 (repackaging of data to fit into “blocks”) -> NVMe driver -> (Google’s virtualization/block device stack, aka Vanadium/PD) -> CFS. The moment data got into ext4, it goes through legacy stack that only exists because many years ago there were hardware devices that had 512 byte sectors (as illustration, upgrade to 4K took forever). All repackaging, IO scheduling to work with 4kb block abstraction is wasted performance and cycles.

From customer perspective, all they want is VM with scalable file system. With Kubernetes, etc. they don’t want to ever think about volume size, which is major hurdle to size correctly and provision. BTW, both small and large customers run into volume sizing issues all the time.

There are also internal customers that need posix-compliant storage “on borg” because they run oss lib/software.

Anyway, optimal stack in this case is to plug in into VM on a file system level. Now, is it hard problem to solve? Yes. Would it eliminate PD? No, still required for legacy cases. Would it be enormously beneficial for modern conteinerized cloud workloads? Absolutely.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recessions are by definition a decline in GDP No, recessions are by definition “significant, widespread, prolonged” declines in economic activity [0] [0] from https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/recession.asp but the three dimensions are, with various terms, common (BLS and NBER use “duration, depth, and diffusion”, CD Howe Institute in Canada uses “pronounced, persistent, and pervasive decline in economic activit…

"decline in economic activity" is a decline in GDP. You're proving my point, not countering it. Nobody defines a recession as a decline in employment. It's correlated, sure, but not the same thing.

> "decline in economic activity" is a decline in GDP.

No, GDP is one of many measures of activity in the economy.

Also, “significant, widespread, and prolonged” are important qualifiers, and quarterly GDP is relevant to at most two (significant and prolonged) of them.

> Nobody defines a recession as a decline in employment

Not employment alone, no. But income has long been recognized as part of the multidimensional set of indicators that determines recession.

The Congressional Research Service in a 2008 report wrote:

A recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales. A recession begins just after the economy reaches a peak of activity and ends as the economy reaches its trough. Between trough and peak, the economy is in an expansion. Expansion is the normal state of the economy; most recessions are brief and they have been rare in recent decades.

This is the generally accepted view among economists of what constitutes an economic recession. There is also a commonly cited "rule of thumb" that is referred to in the press. That rule is that a recession is two consecutive quarterly declines in real gross domestic product (GDP). But this rule does not always apply.

https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20081215_R40052_72d3368...

In 1974, the BLS Commissioner provided this set of rules of thumb for the depth (“significant”), duration (“prolonged”), and diffusion (“widespread”) elements of recession; note that employment is a factor in two of the three elements, just like output (at the time, GDP had not yet replaced GNP as the preferred output measure):

In terms of duration—declines in real G.N.P. for 2 consecutive quarters; a decline in industrial production over a six‐month period.

In terms of depth—A 1.5 per cent decline in real G.N.P.; a 15 per cent decline nonagricultural employment; a two point rise in unemployment to a level of at least 6 per cent.

In terms of diffusion—A decline in nonagricultural employment in more than 75 per cent of industries, as measured over six‐month spans, for 6 months or longer.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200325140941/https://www.nytim...

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of candidates (speaking for myself here) just don’t care too much to negotiate equity at privately held companies. Given the highly unlikely probability that a company I work for will have a successful exit at all, let alone while I am either employed or hold exercised stock options, it’s all Monopoly money to me. Benefits, salary, and bonuses is the only compensation I negotiate and judge a company on.…

Are you counting the equity at a large public company to be lottery tickets? Because it's absolutely not. Every quarter a bunch of real money appears in an account with my name on it, that's not a lottery ticket.

No, I specifically mentioned privately held companies.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#609
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you calculate in the weak Zloty into that sum?

If PLN depreciates against USD (as it has this year) and the contract is USD denominated (which is simpler for Google so likely the case) then you'll have actually received a gradual payrise!

Google in Poland doesn't pay in USD. Why would you think they want simpler solutions?

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute hubris of SV people thinking that they can individually perform the jobs of 2-3 competent teams of people at literally any company outside of SV is why a lot of talented people want nothing to do with SV.

And yet, I show up at a company as a consultant and in two weeks I singlehandedly take care of something ten people have been struggling with for a year

Have you considered that a consultant hired to fix a specific problem, and salaried employees seeking to justify their existence, may have slightly misaligned incentives?
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