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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

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601–610 of 625 posts

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, and I alluded to this more in depth in a comment in this chain. Growing up in the semi-rural South East, USA, where kids didn't get diagnosed with ADHD. (Fun fact -- I had 5 boys who were my childhood friends that grew up with. We all lived within 3 miles of each other, and all of us have ADHD -- something in the water maybe?) I didn't know I had ADHD until I was in a dark dark place in my early 20s after…

Did the ADHD cause CPTSD or the CPTSD that you might already have from childhood neglect/trauma that you're not aware of/dismiss/paint as "not too bad" manifests itself as ADHD? Distraction from pain is one of the most common ways we deal with pain when it's not possible to escape it (which is the case for children that suffer emotional abuse/neglect).

I should probably have said that I am self-diagnosed with (C)PTSD, and have never consulted a professional about it, then again I truly believe we will one day look at psychologist of today like they look at Freud and psychiatrist like blood-letters of the past.

This may sound wild and woo-woo snake-oil, but using cannabis products coupled with mindfulness/deep-thought, I am sometimes able to fire up my "mental debugger" and access parts of my subconsciousness that I cannot tap during normal sobriety. I can pull out memories that I had subconsciously blocked, but I am able to process them in a healthy, compassionate, and understandable manner.

> Distraction from pain is one of the most common ways we deal with pain when it's not possible to escape it

Probably explains my compulsive levels of video games and screen time as a youth, then again... I grew up on a small horse farm on the outskirts of society, so it's not like I had anything else to do lol.

I do sincerely believe that anyone that ever wronged me (especially my family) ever did anything intentionally. Parents aren't given a "Parenting an ADHD Child 101" course or anything. Hell, both my parents probably have it themselves, and my parents swear on their life that the school system never told them anything.

I do think my ADHD manifested first though, for a variety of reasons. A lot of signs and stories seemed to point that I was even symptomatic from infancy. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it were environmental. All my male childhood school friends that grew up in a radius of me all received the same diagnosis at one time or another.

So, while I do think you are on to something, I do not think it applies to me directly.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#602

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Discuss: HN qualifies as "social media". Why or why not?

Hardly. Profiles are extremely minimal, and it's not much more fleshed out than the average WordPress comment system is. I can't follow people on HN (AFAIK) either.

Agree that being able to choose who you follow/"friend" is a key social media feature missing on HN. But profiles are not noticeably more minimal than those on Twitter are far as I can tell.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now look at what it gets spent on. Specifically, take a closer look at housing, healthcare and higher education. All three of those have risen far, far faster than inflation for many years.

whats really interesting is, while some things like electronics and automobiles etc have been getting cheaper, intangibles like healthcare and education have been increasing in cost... whats the cause?

Baumol's cost disease

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

TV and automobile manufacturing are a lot more productive than they were 50 years ago. A teacher can still only teach one classroom at a time.

Therefore, service industries like healthcare, education, and even construction get less and less efficient relative to manufacturing and production industries, which enjoy massive increase in efficiency year after year. This is partly why an 80 inch 4K TV is eventually going to cost $500 and a 4 year college education is going to cost $500,000.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#604
post #417

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The track record is not abysmal: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-y...

> more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression Which your link confirms. And your link also states that antidepressants were oversold, especially to people with mild depression, a level for which antidepressants aren’t particularly good at treating especially in light of the side effects and difficulty to quit.

It seems like you didn’t really read it, just the initial list of claims that he addresses.

> 5. The effect of antidepressants only becomes significant in the most severe depression – Everything about this statement is terrible and everyone involved should feel bad

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whats really interesting is, while some things like electronics and automobiles etc have been getting cheaper, intangibles like healthcare and education have been increasing in cost... whats the cause?

Baumol's cost disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease TV and automobile manufacturing are a lot more productive than they were 50 years ago. A teacher can still only teach one classroom at a time. Therefore, service industries like healthcare, education, and even construction get less and less efficient relative to manufacturing and production industries, which enjoy massive increase in efficien…

if i understand it correctly, its supposed that overall wage increases mean other industries have to compete to get/keep workers but they dont have effeciency increases like manufacturing so prices continue to rise

it makes logical sense, but i wonder if it really is wage competition causing this when wages have been mostly stagnant for the past 50 years?

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/industries-with-the-most-w...

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#606

Yeah, but thats hardly news, we have known that for decades. Otherwise direct serotonin releasers would be the most useful ADs. But these mostly give people nausea and serotonin syndrome. ADs work mostly by being FIASMAs, reducing inflammation and oxidative stress, increasing neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, increasing the activity of other monoaminergic systems, and the serotonergic portion is mostly explained by d…

How common is seretonin syndrome amongst people who take SSRIs?

My understanding of seretonin syndrome is that it's a serious life-threatening condition that can occasionally occur when people take too much MDMA.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#608
post #486

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To be clear: The serotonin deficiency hypothesis has been floated for a long time as one of the possible underlying changes involved in depression etiology. It’s not even a stretch, given that we can find upregulations of the serotonin transporter in response to chronic unpredictable mild stress, the fact that 5-HTP (serotonin precursors) supplementation can boost mood, and the fact that many drugs of abuse operate t…

I've heard people say that the serotonin deficiency hypothesis was invented by drug companies rather than academics. Is that true?

"Low serotonin" was a marketing simplification at one point a decade or more ago. Whether companies were the source of that simplification is up in the air, but they certainly leaned into it in their marketing.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: The serotonin deficiency hypothesis has been floated for a long time as one of the possible underlying changes involved in depression etiology. It’s not even a stretch, given that we can find upregulations of the serotonin transporter in response to chronic unpredictable mild stress, the fact that 5-HTP (serotonin precursors) supplementation can boost mood, and the fact that many drugs of abuse operate t…

I've tried lots of natural anti-depressant remedies. Background: I've suffered with major depression my entire life with frequent suicidal ideation and several near-suicides. It's fairly seasonal and wile it happens throughout the year the worst time is in the winter near the solstice. I've also struggled with difficulty falling asleep since very young childhood, though that has gotten somewhat better with age (over…

The uncomfortable feeling you get from 5-HTP can be from activation of parasympathetic serotonin receptors, as well as activation of 5-HT2C in the brain. You're essentially going through the initial two weeks of SSRI use, where 5-HT2C gets activated but hasn't downregulated yet, which is a hypothesized source of increased anxiety and suicidality from initial SSRI use. What would be interesting is to see if that discomfort would dissipate after 2+ weeks of chronic 5-HTP use, with the goal of blasting 5-HT2C until it's desensitized, which is what happens with chronic SSRI use. I don't like the idea of 5-HTP because of the potential for higher levels of serotonin in the blood potentially activating 5-HT2B in the heart, potentially leading you to need a heart valve replacement.

Regarding L-Dopa, from what I'm aware of, L-Dopa gets metabolized before it makes it to the brain, so much of the L-Dopa gets metabolized into dopamine and norepinephrine outside of the brain and then those neurotransmitters activate the parasympathetic nervous system, resulting in increased anxiety, paranoia and physical discomfort. That parasympathetic activation can increase feelings of alertness and wakefulness without ever having L-Dopa enter the brain. Another interesting thing to see is how L-Dopa would fare when taking it with an inhibitor that would allow it to successfully enter the brain a la Carbidopa for Parkinson's patients.

Obviously don't do this, I'm just thinking out loud and fucking around with your body like this can have serious consequences if you aren't doing so under the supervision of your own doctor.

Finally, regarding THC, if anxiety and paranoia are problems for you, like you allude to when talking about L-Dopa, try delta-8-THC. I find it to be much more therapeutic than delta-9-THC. I get no anxiety or paranoia from delta-8-THC, but I do get the full therapeutic effect I got from normal THC when it comes to antiemesis, mood, pain, etc. It also has less of an intoxicating effect, and doesn't mess with my memory of motivation as bad as delta-9-THC does. I haven't used normal THC in years despite it being legal and readily available.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried lots of natural anti-depressant remedies. Background: I've suffered with major depression my entire life with frequent suicidal ideation and several near-suicides. It's fairly seasonal and wile it happens throughout the year the worst time is in the winter near the solstice. I've also struggled with difficulty falling asleep since very young childhood, though that has gotten somewhat better with age (over…

Thanks for your post, and thanks for whoever vouched for this. I have a similar background to you, including age, living in a northern latitude with short winter days, long term sleep issues, and suicidal ideation. 5-HTP - There seems to be wide variation in the formulations available from manufacturers. Some have given me no issues at all, another brand, of the same strength, consistently leads to intense nausea and…

Have you ever tried 5-HT2A antagonists or inverse agonists like trazodone, mirtazapine, or the dozens of atypical antipsychotics that are indicated for depression? I ask because I wonder if the rapid tolerance at 5-HT2A is responsible for the therapeutic response you get from psychedelics, and if antagonists or inverse agonists can emulate that tolerance in a sustainable way that doesn't require regular psychedelic experiences. Those experiences can be great, but the potential for bad experiences might be a Faustian bargain.
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