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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#601

Post by dm33tri »

siva7 wrote: post #549
hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

This is classic HN bubble. I would estimate that most software engineers around the world never come into this luxury situation where you can say that money just isn't motivating you anymore when considering new job opportunities.

In less developed countries $10k is >= 40% annual salary for most developers with almost any skillset

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#602

Post by mcv »

codethief wrote: post #581
mcv wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite all of that, I think engineers are underpaid in Europe (and presumably East Asia). I just left a job at a major bank where all the non-engineer roles got paid, or at least could be paid more than I got. There were 5 pay scales for engineers, the top 2 of which weren't even being used. I got there from a freelance contract, and I had to take a serious pay cut to continue working on the project. It was a really…

Slightly off-topic questions, because I've been thinking about freelancing lately: - Where/how do you (as a freelancer) find your clients? (Do you focus on clients from the financial industry?) - Where are those clients from (location-wise)? - Do you work remotely? If yes, does your timezone need to match your client's timezone? Put differently: How flexible are you when it comes to working hours?

It's a bit embarrassing perhaps, but I don't actually look much for clients. Recruitment agencies find me on LinkedIn and contact me about projects they're trying to fill. Doing my own acquisition would be a lot of extra work, and I'm not convinced I could do it better than these recruiters, so I just sit here and let them contact me.

My projects tend to be 1-2 years where I'm part of a team working on the same thing. A single client at a time.

My clients are mostly from Amsterdam, where I live. I want to be able to bike to work. Well, normally; these days I work from home, but we're in the same timezone and I work normal working hours.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#603

Post by whiskyant »

jmchuster wrote: post #315
redisman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview Ugh yeah it’s ridiculous. We can’t hire anyone! Have you considered not putting candidates through months of studying to memorize a bunch of algorithm tricks and then grilling them for 5-10 hours total on those? No - that’s not what the cargo cult manual says.

I dunno if it's that ridiculous. Having to spend a couple of months studying to get a 100k raise, seems not a completely unfair trade.

Yup, don’t regret spending 2 months for a $250k raise one bit.

The vast majority of tech companies including startups are asking algorithm style questions these days. It’s adapt or die.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#604

Post by harshaw »

square_usual wrote: post #199
UncleOxidant wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIP culture? Google isn't giving me any answers here.

PIP stands for "Performance Improvement Plan". PIPs are a relatively common tool to give employees advance notice about getting fired, but Amazon has a notably brutal setup that uses stack ranking. Described here: https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/kh9ztt/can_someon...

posting just as an acecdote, but as a AWS HM PIP is only used for really really obvious under performers. Honestly, one regret is not putting under performers on a plan fast enough because it is a big drag on team morale when someone isn't pulling their weight.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#605

Post by bdavis__ »

throwaway1293 wrote: post #573
elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Note that I'm not saying we shouldn't do as best as we can with documentation, clean code, etc, BUT: In the open source world, I've developed a large low quality codebase that is very complex from when I was less experienced. This project has gotten plenty of contributions over the years, some from less experienced and some from more experienced. The experienced developers know how to get around the codebase, but the…

it is probably because the new devs know so much more and are able to identify and communicate problems in code that others have written.

write code for the center of the bell curve (at your organization). the bottom will never understand anything, the top understands it all. You need to make the majority in the middle be comfortable.

that means slowly bringing in new language features, as they become widely known and practiced.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#606

Post by democracy »

fifilura wrote: post #158

I remember, back in year 2000, I went to a speech held by ESR (somewhat odd since I am based in Europe) with content very similar to this article. He was ranting about how all companies should open source their code because that is what keeps employees stay and happy. It was in the middle of the netscape/mozilla open source craze. My reaction was "OK, this is the guy everyone is talking about". A few months later - t…

I am trying to think of a reason why open-sourcing my employer's code would make anyone happy and I can't :)

Or maybe I have too much stuff I work on on my own to worry about it...

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#607

Post by Joeri »

codethief wrote: post #586
Joeri wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you do get (speaking here from my experience in Belgium) is that the top of the wage scale is invisible because past a certain tier everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes. It is not unusual in senior tech roles to charge 1K+ per day or 20K+ per month, and pay a lower effective tax rate on that income, while having long term engagements with the same companies so that little time is lost to churn.

> everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes You mean, to avoid the social security fees (health/pension/unemployment/…)? After all, as a consultant (whether incorporated or not) you still need to pay taxes and the rates are pretty similar to tax rates for employees.

The people that I know that are self-employed and earning high incomes generally are incorporated and have an accountant to set up tax avoidance strategies to have a lower effective tax rate. Effective tax rates seem to follow a gauss curve, low at the bottom, low at the top, highest for the middle earners.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#608

Post by austincheney »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

As somebody who has been writing software for two decades the most important ingredient for me is maturity. I am not going to leave the employment I currently have if signals of maturity are weak.

More money does not compensate for this. I thought it would when I interviewing a few months ago (50% salary increase). I was wrong.

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29826152

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#610

Post by Beldin »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

A 500-3000% increase in salary is different from a 5% increase, agreed.

I would be genuinely amazed if you couldn't fill your positions once you started offering upwards of $1.5m yearly.

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