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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#601

Post by ttymck »

jl6 wrote: post #593
Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I wasn’t around in the 1970s, so can someone explain to me how great it was with some examples that would make me want to go and live in the 1970s?

I'm sorry I don't have sources, but anecdotally, home ownership is so far out of reach for most Americans today. The common rhetoric is that "a store clerk could afford a [desirable] home for their entire family" in 1970 while today they often need double income to rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

Hoping someone comes along with a more evidence based continuation of this point.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#602

Post by colinmhayes »

mc32 wrote: post #591
tootie wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not a problem? Wages rose substantially in the years between WWII and the 1970s but isn't that the actual aberration?

That’s part of it. It’s similar to China from the 90’s to the 2020’s. Likely Chinese will not see real wages go up at the same rate in the 2039’s as they did the previous decades. That said, what’s eating real wage growth is outsourcing. It’s simple. If I can build a fridge by paying workers in China or Mexico $2/hr vs paying a US worker $22/hr in a manufactury plant, my competition will eventually lose market share…

In the post war period the US was manufacturing goods for not just domestic use, but for the entire world. Pretty much all industrial capability was here in that period, so foreigners were forced to buy American goods. Those days are over and are never coming back. Most countries have their own industrial base now. There will never again be american employment in manufacturing like there was in the post war period, even if imports were completely banned.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#603

Post by montblanc »

deadbunny wrote: post #466
prepend wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting…

Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take…

I used a physical map, but especially inside cities how the hell are you supposed to keep your eyes on the road and navigate at the same time? A 30 minute drive can have idk 50 turns. Do you memorize those 50 turns? What about places where the street signs suck?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#604

Post by mctaylor »

xwolfi wrote: post #539
throwawaycities wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad this was the top comment. Wages have not kept up with cost of living for 50 years in the US. We need to stop pretending flat wages are some modern problem of inflation, and we need to stop pretending inflation is some problem caused by the pandemic.

Wages ARE the cost of living. Who do you think make your food, your clothes and your light ? Are you sure it's not your own desires getting ahead of your wage ? I feel we can do things our grandparents couldnt even dream of (mines remember a time in his French village when horses would collect garbage, horses!) and that our parents suspected only. Hell the fact I can speak English and all it cost was a few taxe raise…

The idea that those who are falling through the cracks in the system is because they aren't working hard enough is crap. Thanks to the "golden age" you correctly say we live in, automation and globalisation have steadily eroded the value of human labor since the 70s (a big part of why real wage growth has been negative). Thanks in part to financialization and in part to anti-competitive regulations that benefit monopolistic incumbents, growth is increasingly driven by financialization and rent-seeking from capital owners. The fact that you are on HN likely means you benefit from your ability to assist the upper class (billionaires) increase their share of the wealth by diligently creating more and more intellectual property capital. The numbers don't lie, and the numbers show the poor are getting poorer (despite working just as hard), and the rich are getting richer (and none more so than the billionaires who own the intellectual property capital that let's them extract ever-increasing rents in exchange for granting ever-decreasing access to the latest innovations - particularly in pharmaceuticals and technology).

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#605

Post by notreallyserio »

refurb wrote: post #139
neuroma wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse. Many people could see their fractional tax burden increasing as their nominal wage rises and crosses higher tax bandings. Inflating is a slow theft, and the description of "financial oppression" is apt.

Tax brackets in the US are indexed to inflation. They weren't always, but that was changed in the 80's I think?

It doesn't look like the increase is quite 6% across the board, however: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-provides-tax-inflation-adju...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#606

Post by snarf21 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

Well said. The truth is that the greatest trick the rich ever pulled was convincing the middle class that their woes are the fault of the poor.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#607

Post by colinmhayes »

notreallyserio wrote: post #597
ergocoder wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google HR answered this question in a company-wide forum. It is mostly the market (e.g. the other company pay high, so we do too). The living cost doesn't really matter. I appreciate the honesty though.

If that's truly the case then they would pay the same salary regardless of location. Do they? A lot of big employers have proudly said no, they'd pay remote workers less if they're in cheaper locations.

Developers in low cost of living regions demand less money, so they're paid less. Sounds like Google is doing exactly what they said.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#608

Post by newaccount2021 »

dan-robertson wrote: post #276
Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

> I think this is obviously false

only because you believe access to cheap laptops is more important than access to affordable homes

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#609

Post by KptMarchewa »

deadbunny wrote: post #466
prepend wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting…

Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take…

This is not a bubble, and driving using physical maps outside of major highways is a nightmare.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#610

Post by ghaff »

greedo wrote: post #598
ghaff wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is one JD Power survey although you'd probably have to dig to find numbers over a longer period of time. In my experience, it's clearly true overall. In the 1970s, say, you're probably looking at a car in the snow belt lasting 5 years because of rust and 100,000 miles was generally considered very high mileage.

That's because the majority of cars bought in the snow belt during the 70's were American made, and US car quality was terrible during this period.

My family tended to have European cars and they were just as bad.
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