California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#601

Post by delusional » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

Let's cut the bullshit and get straight to the heart here. Are black people, in your opinion, predisposed to be bad at math? If yes, then i guess your opinion is at least logically consistent. If no, then why are they (according to the article at least) underachieving?

If black kids aren't being served by the current curriculum, then I think it's reasonable to assume that some white kids aren't either.

I suggest that certain kids are being served poorly by the current system. If those kids were served better we could lift the floor, which would enable the high achievers to reach even further.

If you have 100 high achievers it's much more likely that one of them will produce a breakthrough than if you have 10.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#602

Post by cs702 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #502

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California:

> Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”

To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments.

Your comment reminds me of this passage from an old article about Finland's educational system, widely considered to be one of the best in the world:

> Children [in Finland] spend far more time playing outside, even in the depths of winter. Homework is minimal. Compulsory schooling does not begin until age 7. “We have no hurry,” said Louhivuori [a Finnish teacher]. “Children learn better when they are ready. Why stress them out?”

Text in brackets is mine. I highly recommend reading the whole article:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-s...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#603

Post by elif » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

From what I gather.. their performance analysis showed that 10th graders taught algebra performed better than 9th graders taught algebra...

This is obviously not a reasonable metric due to many factors such as age, brain development, maturity and additional adjacent curriculum.

I don't get it though.. algebra is just variables right? Aren't we teaching programming to elementary schoolers? I know I'd written my first MMO bot by 9th grade...

Perhaps programming is a more 'tangible' way for children to experience algebra, rather than paper abstractions?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#604

Post by foxhop » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

dls2016 wrote: post #600

foxhop wrote: post #582

We have observed that physical distancing children hurt a lot of children. It was a sacrifical experiment to try to save the elderly and weak. When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, we knew even then that children are not really at risk of dying from sars-cov-2. Seems like the correct course of action for the times is to take education out of the hands of go…

Sounds like your child would have been fine in any system.

I have 3 children and they all come with very different personalities and skills, just like all people.

My oldest is a freshman in high-school and he is very happy to be back in school, even with a mask all day and 6 feet apart in class and lunch, if it means seeing his friends and not being isolated (teachers treated the final wave of children doing distance learning last year horribly). I think he is relieved from being discriminated.

Sounds like prison to me, but he wakes himself up and gets ready, and goes. Over all he appears happier. My 5th grader wants to be homeschooled after going back.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#605

Post by dav_Oz » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group."

After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for indoctrination. They justify their power by using "science, technology, art, literature, history, social community, cultural exchange ...". Of course sheer by its power and scope we certainly "learn" something there. And you also happen to find great teachers in that system but its certainly not its main purpose.

Going back historically, schools still remain inherently (and shockingly so) medieval institutions. Interestingly "school" originally stems from the greek word of σχολή (/skʰo.lɛ̌ː/) which simply means "free time, leisure" which got hijacked by the church with "monastic schools" and today "school" means quite the opposite.

Throughout its (western) history with changing society they were succesful adaptions made (Prussian system, Humboldt's Ideal, Montessori pedagogy) skyrocketing literacy, expolding number of scientists etc.

But today the educational system is massively outpaced by the societal changes and by failing simply regresses to its medieval core of indoctrination ("preparation for the labor market").

No scientific literacy (aka critical thinking, controversial debates), no "learning" grounded on cognitive sciences, no hearing and tending to the needs of our young which they can perfectly articulate.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#606

Post by koheripbal » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #56

This is one of those issues that I can't understand the opposing argument. It's just an issue I find so objectionable that I cannot understand why anyone would be imposing this. Literally holding kids back. The only defense I hear is that kids don't really benefit from advanced classes and they'll be fine anyway. But gifted children will not necessarily be fine. Most of the smartest people I know struggled in school…

The argument is that African American students perform poorly in these subjects on average, and it impacts their grades and thus impacts their college admissions.

So the only way to even the playing field is to eliminate difficult subjects in high school, so that everyone gets near-perfect grades.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#607

Post by thizzbuzz » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #273

ironman1478 wrote: post #249

These efforts feel misguided. Black and Latino people aren't bad at math because of the language used in math education (most of the language seems neutral from what I remembered), it's because they are largely poor, due to structural racism or they are first generation immigrants who didn't come to work in tech or something. They're just poor and unfortunately it's hard to really do anything when you're poor in Amer…

The PC model that unequal outcomes would disappear if you simply addressed poverty, fought putative structural discrimination via affirmative action, etc. has been repeatedly applied and disproven at massive scale dozens of times since the 60s. It's a nice story but it doesn't seem to reflect reality at all. I don't think the model of "it's because the way math is phrased is racist" is a better model - in fact, it's…

What are you talking about, you noxious tool? Wealth inequality is higher than ever since before the 1960s. There is every indication that reducing poverty improves educational outcomes.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#608

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#609

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

polaris_mars wrote: post #579

fxtentacle wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You can take a course to upgrade from middle to high tier after the fact. A friend of mine did the middle track first and after working a bit he then went on to university. He's now doing AI programming. The system is quite fluid if you put in some effort.

Exactly. I would add that the spirit of system is realising that people have different abilities and training them accordingly to their potential, and there is nothing wrong with that. Realschule and Hauptschule are not there to try to get everyone back into gymnasium track. The merits of Realschule and Hauptschule are well established in society since they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and tech…

> they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and technical jobs e.g. doing machine maintenance in factories and so on.

These jobs are going away in the near future. Nowadays the only people who work in factories are highly skilled engineers with complex e.g. CNC skills and a heavy math background.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#610

Post by koheripbal » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #19

hanniabu wrote: post #3

Well that's stupid. If anything they should introduce it sooner. There's tons of research that show the sooner it's introduced the better they are able to digest that (as in it becomes more second nature and are later able to reason with it and build off that knowledge better).

It's hard to introduce Algebra much earlier than 8th grade - the students just don't have the mathematical maturity for it. What you can do though is challenge and expose them to slightly more complex applications of ordinary math (often stated via increasingly elaborate "word problems") that make the introduction of algebra a lot more natural when the students are finally up for it. You tend to see this approach in…

This is nonsense. I do simple algebra with my daughter and she's in 3rd grade.

All it takes is a little one-on-one time and some interest.

Kids are way smarter that you realize.