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Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

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Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#601
post #432
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the memory was one of the more interesting bits here. My 2-year-old Intel MBP has 64 GB, and 8 GB of additional memory on the GPU. True, on the M1 Max you don't have to copy back and forth between CPU and GPU thanks to integrated memory, but the new MBP still has less total memory than my 2-year-old Intel MBP. And it seems they just barely managed to get to 64 GiB. The whole processor chip is surrounded by…

> but the new MBP still has less total memory From the perspective of your GPU, that 64GB of main memory attached to your CPU is almost as slow to fetch from as if it were memory on a separate NUMA node, or even pages swapped to an NVMe disk. It may as well not be considered "memory" at all. It's effectively a secondary storage tier. Which means that you can't really do "GPU things" (e.g. working with hugely detailed…

That's not how M1's unified memory works.

>The SoC has access to 16GB of unified memory. This uses 4266 MT/s LPDDR4X SDRAM (synchronous DRAM) and is mounted with the SoC using a system-in-package (SiP) design. A SoC is built from a single semiconductor die whereas a SiP connects two or more semiconductor dies. SDRAM operations are synchronised to the SoC processing clock speed. Apple describes the SDRAM as a single pool of high-bandwidth, low-latency memory, allowing apps to share data between the CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine efficiently. In other words, this memory is shared between the three different compute engines and their cores. The three don't have their own individual memory resources, which would need data moved into them. This would happen when, for example, an app executing in the CPU needs graphics processing – meaning the GPU swings into action, using data in its memory. https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/19/apple_m1_high_bandwid...

These Macs are gonna be machine learning beasts.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#602
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M1 still uses DDR memory at the end of the day, it's just physically closer to the core. This is in contrast to L3 which is actual SRAM on the core. The DDR being closer to the core may or may not allow the memory to run at higher speeds due to better signal integrity, but you can purchase DDR4-5333 today whereas the M1 uses 4266. The real advantage is the M1 Max uses 8 channels, which is impressive considering t…

Just to underscore this, memory physically closer to the cores has improved tRAS times measured in nanoseconds. This has the secondary effect of boosting the performance of the last-level cache since it can fill lines on a cache miss much faster. The step up from DDR4 to DDR5 will help fill cache misses that are predictable, but everybody uses a prefetcher already, the net effect of DDR5 is mostly just better efficie…

> Just to underscore this, memory physically closer to the cores has improved tRAS times measured in nanoseconds.

I doubt that tRAS timing is affected by how close / far a DRAM chip is from the core. Its just a RAS command after all: transfer data from DRAM to the sense-amplifiers.

If tRAS has improved, I'd be curious how it was done. Its one of those values that's basically been constant (on a nanosecond basis) for 20 years.

Most DDR3 / DDR4 improvements have been about breaking up the chip into more-and-more groups, so that Group#1 can be issued a RAS command, then Group#2 can be issued a separate RAS command. This doesn't lower latency, it just allows the memory subsystem to parallelize the requests (increasing bandwidth but not improving the actual command latency specifically).

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#603

Kind of surprising to me they’re not making more effort towards game support - maybe someone can explain what the barriers are towards mac support - is it lack of shared libraries, x64 only, sheer number of compute cores? When I see the spec sheet and “16x graphics improvement” I go okay what could it handle in terms of game rendering? Is it really only for video production and GPU compute tasks?

The gaming capability is there, but Apple only officially supports their own Metal on macOS as far as graphics languages, meaning the only devs with experience with Metal are the World of Warcraft team at Blizzard and mobile gaming studios. MoltenVK exists to help port Vulkan based games, but generally it's rough going at the moment. I'm personally hoping that the volume of M1 Macs Apple has been selling will cause devs to support Macs.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#604

Kind of surprising to me they’re not making more effort towards game support - maybe someone can explain what the barriers are towards mac support - is it lack of shared libraries, x64 only, sheer number of compute cores? When I see the spec sheet and “16x graphics improvement” I go okay what could it handle in terms of game rendering? Is it really only for video production and GPU compute tasks?

Price you can’t win the gaming market with 2000+$ product

Have you seen GPU prices lately? Desktop 3070 level performance in portable laptop for 3500$ is not that bad of a deal. If they make Mac Mini around 2500$ it would be pretty competitive in PC space.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you prefetch "node->next" where "node" is in a linked list? Answer: you literally can't. And that's why this kind of coding style will forever be latency bound. EDIT: Prefetching works when the address can be predicted ahead of time. For example, when your CPU-core is reading "array", then "array+8", then "array+16", you can be pretty damn sure the next thing it wants to read is "array+24", so you prefetch tha…

I don't really know how the implementation of a tracing GC works but I was thinking they could do some smart memory ordering to land in the same cache-line as often as possible. Thanks for the clarifications :)

Interestingly earlyish smalltalk VMs used to keep the object headers in a separate contiguous table.

Part of the problem though, is that the object graph walk pretty quickly is non contiguous, regardless of how it's laid out in memory.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The M1 still uses DDR memory at the end of the day, it's just physically closer to the core. This is in contrast to L3 which is actual SRAM on the core. But they're probably using 8-channels of LPDDR5, if this 400GB/s number is to be believed. Which is far more memory channels / bandwidth than any normal chip released so far, EPYC and Skylake-server included.

It's more comparable to the sort of memory bus you'd typically see on a GPU... which is exactly what you'd hope for on a system with high-end integrated graphics. :)

You'd expect HBM or GDDR6 to be used. But this is seemingly LPDDR5 that's being used.

So its still quite unusual. Its like Apple decided to take commodity phone-RAM and just make many parallel channels of it... rather than using high-speed RAM to begin with.

HBM is specifically designed to be soldered near a CPU/GPU as well. For them to be soldering commodity LPDDR6 is kinda weird to me.

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We know it isn't HBM because HBM is 1024-bits at lower clock speeds. Apple is saying they have 512-bits across 8 channels (64-bits per channel), which is near LPDDR5 / DDR kind of numbers.

200GBps is within the realm of 1x HBM channel (1024-bit at low clock speeds), and 400GBps is 2x HBM channels (2048-bit bus at low clock speeds).

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just some genuine honest curiosity here; how many workloads actually require 64gb of ram? For instance, I'm an amateur in the music production scene, and I know that sampling heavy work flows benefit from being able to load more audio clips fully into RAM rather than streaming them from disk. But 64g seems a tad overkill even for that. I guess for me I would prefer an emphasis on speed/bandwidth rather than size, but…

Another anecdote from someone who is also in the music production scene - 32GB tended to be the "sweet spot" in my personal case for the longest time, but I'm finding myself hitting the limits more and more as I continue to add more orchestral tracks which span well over 100 tracks total in my workflows. I'm finding I need to commit and print a lot of these. Logic's little checker in the upper right showing RAM, Disk…

I know the main reason why the Mac Pro has options for LRDIMMs for terabytes of RAM is specifically for audio production, where people are basically using their system memory as cache for their entire instrument library.

I have to wonder how Apple plans to replace the Mac Pro - the whole benefit of M1 is that gluing the memory to the chip (in a user-hostile way) provides significant performance benefits; but I don't see Apple actually engineering a 1TB+ RAM SKU or an Apple Silicon machine with socketed DRAM channels anytime soon.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obsession with emissions has really made people start to miss the forest from the trees.

Emissions affect everyone on the planet, no matter where they happen. But polluting the ground or water only happens in China, so a lot of Americans that care about emissions don't care about the other types of pollution, because it doesn't affect them.

You would be surprised just how much food you eat has been grown in China using polluted land and water.

It's not so much fresh vegetables, but ingredients in other types of food -- especially the frozen fruit, vegetables and farmed seafood that finds its way into grocery store and restaurant supply chains.

Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors

#610
post #377

These things came at a great time for me. My late-2014 MBP just received its last major OS upgrade (Big Sur), so I'm officially in unsupported waters now. I was getting concerned in that era from 2015-2019 with all the bad decisions (butterfly keyboard, no I/O, touchbar, graphics issues, etc.) but this new generation of MacBooks seems to have resolved all my points of concern. On the other hand, my late-2014 model is…

You could easily upgrade macOS using https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.ht....

On the hardware side, you could open it up, clean the fan, re-apply thermal paste (after so many years, this will make a big difference) and maybe even upgrade the SSD if you feel like it.

That way, this laptop can easily survive another 1-3 years depending on your use-cases.

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