Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho' • Hacker News Board

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#601

Post by hackyhacky » Fri, May 21, 2021, 3:56 AM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #413

madengr wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?" The US Bill of Rights.

You're being downvoted, but you're correct. Values espoused by the founding documents of the current United States government are also properly called American, even if the majority of americans disagree. There's two possible meanings here that is causing people confusion.

So you're saying that slavery is an American value?

It is, after all, in the Constitution, although its popularity has waned of late.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#602

Post by intended » Fri, May 21, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

autokad wrote: post #578

halostatue wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I do, in fact, understand. I also understand that the US’s subsidies distort international markets, and that the US’s entire food aid program (which is a large part of those subsidies) severely distorts local markets and disincentivizes farm production in poorer countries. 2. They are _American_ staples. They are not necessarily staples in receiving countries, and as noted above, may actually be distorting local m…

and you somehow think if the US stopped producing food and started importing all of its food, it wouldn't cause famine.

Yes. Provided you don’t do it as some sort of dead shock to global systems.

Food production is a modern solved problem. The politics of it is not.

No country is giving up food security and voter messaging to the invisible hand of a global market. No one likes corn as much as Americans do, yet its one of your greater exports, simply because of American economic and diplomatic ascendancy.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#603

Post by hackyhacky » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #445

URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

> A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has nothing to do with work ethic, it's just a hard fact that a lot of costs scale with square miles instead of with people…

I don't see much difference between the "new Trumpian GOP" and "old GOP" in terms of concrete policy. Both are staunchly anti-immigration, both reject social programs aimed at helping those in poverty (including healthcare, such as the Affordable Care Act), both want to increase privatization of government services (such as education and the post office), both oppose unions (arguably one of the best ways to ensure a consistent increase in wages). And most importantly, both the new and old GOP define themselves mostly by what they aren't: all those smart-talkin', book-larnin' liberals on the coast.

Hot top: it isn't the coastal liberals who are causing stagnating wages. It's the anti-union, labor-exploiting wealthy who are the stars of the GOP.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#604

Post by marricks » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:22 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #466

marricks wrote: post #60

As an left Oregonian I think this would be a win-win. Oregon is an extremely liberal state in the valley but outside of metropolitan areas, obviously not. Our state legislature is regularly shut down and forced to cater to far right views. Like, these conservative congressman refuse to show up and literally shut it down so nothing gets done. Liberal congresspeople in general not willing to do anything besides chastis…

So the whole legislature doesn't get big progressives projects done as much as they might otherwise. But that’s how it’s supposed to work ? If only a portion of your electorate supports progressive projects then it’s not supposed to be easy to pass them. Your statement is really bizarre.

Let me give an example, say you you have 61% of the senators so you have a supermajority and can anything you want passed. Ok that's fine. Well says there's a quorum where 70% of senators must be present for a vote.

The very minority party now can just leave and stop anything from happening. That's effectively what the republican did.

You can call it a fair democracy because it's "following the rules" but it's pretty fucked IMO.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#605

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:24 AM UTC

yesBoot wrote: post #566

s1artibartfast wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What purpose does the state serve, if not to empower the people. If some regions want to join another state, why not enable them if it is not inherently hostile or damaging to others? Perhaps the rest of the state would be happy to see these people and the land they live on go. It seems like you are defaulting to a pretty negative opinion of these people.

The state has an obligation to the people. Not some people who don’t like the state anymore. I’d feel this way if it was left leaning folks who want the liberal regions to join California. It’s not about “these people” at all for me except that these people happen to be the ones we’re talking about. I’d appreciate it if an armchair shrink not diagnose me without knowing me. It’s not the obligation of the state as a w…

It sounds like we have very fundamentally different views of government.

If why take for granted that the state has no obligation to them, the question still stands: why not try to give them what they want?

Do you view these people as disrespectful of the state the state institutions? Is it a matter of setting precedent or distorting historical legacy? Is it that these people are inconveniencing other citizens by asking for what they want?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#606

Post by shkkmo » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:24 AM UTC

halostatue wrote: post #533

fyijbxmuyidudm wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegals is, of course, a shorthand for illegal alien. The shorthand was created because of the regularity of having to describe such an individual. In what way could someone describe the reality of "a person who has violated international border agreements and is residing in a country in violation of the laws of that country" that you would not consider dehumanizing?

People can’t be illegal. They can be in the country without proper documentation. The _correct_ and _humane_ term is “undocumented”.

People can't be illegal, but they can do illegal things. I've never liked "illegal alien" or "illegals", but "undocumented noncitizen" seems much less accurate than "illegal immigrant".

I support a path to citizenship and making all forms of immigration more fair, humane and much more widely available. I don't understand the push from some on the left to say that all enforcement of immigration laws should go away.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#607

Post by crocodiletears » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #511

sharkmerry wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's probably less crazy than having almost 40 million people be represented by just 2 senators when Wyoming has the same number of senators for barely half a million people. This was purposely the design of the Senate. This complaint should be more applied to the House, where we stopped increasing the number of reps as population grew

I don’t think the founding fathers really understood how much the population of the states would diverge over the years.

Iirc, the least populous states in the union were about 7% (~1.5% of the national population) the population of the most populous (Virginia). Within 30 years of the constitution's ratification, Indiana was granted statehood with a population equivalent to .8% of the national population.

It's a far cry from Wyoming being ~1% the population of California (~.17% of the US pop), but I think they and the first few generations of american politicians were reasonably aware of the potential spread.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#608

Post by catgary » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #535

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

County borders make much more sense. Congressional district boundaries change much more often. They also mean nothing to people in terms of their geographic identity. No one says, "Oh yeah, I live over in the 13th District."

A properly drawn congressional boundary should have a predictable number of citizens, however. Arbitrarily choosing county boundaries (and why county boundaries instead of some other method?) would probably upset the balance of population and require reallocation of representatives. Or maybe the price of seceding from your state is that you don't get to take the representation with you and therefore must wait until t…

I mean, stuff like school board and police departments are often organized by county, no?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#609

Post by catgary » Fri, May 21, 2021, 4:58 AM UTC

ineptech wrote: post #468

catgary wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Oregon necessarily be against this? This seems like a great way to (a) get rid of nut jobs from the state legislature, and (b) get rid of a bunch of counties that sinkholes (financially speaking).

> Would Oregon necessarily be against this? Yes, Western/urban/blue Oregon is against this. I don't think there's a simple self-interest-based reason like "we would lose X if they left," but it is considered an unserious idea, would involve large-but-not-well-understood costs, and there's no reason to do it.

But what would the cost be to those western Oregonians? I just feel like in their position I’d be tempted to say “don’t let the door hit you on your way out.”

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#610

Post by manyxcxi » Fri, May 21, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

nverno wrote: post #532

legitster wrote: post #492

I think it's interesting that the actual proposal is RIFE with some really, really bad analysis: https://www.greateridaho.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Grea... The best example is how they treat averages: As part of their "win-win" scenario: the new average income for the state of Oregon would rise. As if individuals would actually directly benefit from the average arbitrarily going up. Inversely, one of the benefit…

I get the feeling the people behind the proposal aren't doing it for political gain. It sounds like they are fully resigned to their group's lack of political power in the region, and just want some respite. Less competitive elections sound great to me. That would imply that whoever won would have good majority support and maybe politics would fade into the background where it belongs.

I’ve lived in Oregon most my life. Not unlike Washington (or many other states), when you get out of the metro areas the voting turns from “blue” to “red” pretty quickly. East of Bend has significantly more in common with Idaho than the valley (Portland, Salem, Eugene) or the coast- in fact there is a section of eastern Oregon even in the Mountain time zone. Once you get 200+ miles east of Portland, you’re closer (and more likely) to go to Boise than you’ll ever come to Portland.

For reference, Baker City, a larger eastern Oregon population center, is approximately 300 miles from Portland and about 140 from Boise. Pendleton may be about equidistant. I’ve got acquaintances and friends that have only been to the western side of the state a few times in their life and they’re more likely to spend their time in Idaho or Nevada than come west.

The way of life out there is completely foreign to most on the western side of the state, and the eastern side thinks the west is full of “crazy liberals”. It’s been that way my whole life, but the last few years have made it seem completely broken.

I spend a lot of time out east, whether it is Idaho or Oregon, I’ll still spend my time out there- but I’d love to find a way to prevent the divorce (that they’ve been talking about since before I was born).