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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#601

Post by PeterStuer »

tal8d wrote: post #541
mkolodny wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

It is an absolutely braindead thing for a nuclear power to do - bio/chem weapon R&D. The reason why the US abandoned that course so long ago had nothing to do with morality - somebody in the DoD simply realized that they were furthering the state of the art in dirt cheap WMDs. If you already have nukes, you want to keep the cost of doomsday devices as high as possible - limiting the number of potential rivals.

"the US abandoned that course so long ago "

How do you know this?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#602

Post by cratermoon »

lenkite wrote: post #567
em500 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paints a rather colored picture. The initial advisory from 14 Jan 2020 [1] presents their case that "Based on the available information there is no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission." The reader can decide if that was a fair assesment at the time. The text was followed by "Additional investigation is needed to ascertain the presence of human-to-human transmission, modes of transmission, common source…

It's not just 14th Jan. The WHO had more than sufficient data at its disposal to avoid making misleading statements. All warnings from Taiwan in December were actively ignored. https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/taiwan-wa... https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3904054 Please note that the WHO confirmation statement on 22nd Jan came about after independent confirmation of human to human transmission…

What would the anti-China xenophobes be saying if WHO were to say, without sufficient evidence, that human-to-human transmission was happening and it turned out to be mistaken?

Being skeptical is acceptable but not to the extent of rejecting the evidentiary process.

Also, Taiwan News is notably anti-China and is associated with Taiwanese nationalists.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#603

Post by cratermoon »

Splatter wrote: post #489
cratermoon wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epidemiology. History. The Spanish Flu was called that because at the time everyone (for xenophobic reasons... sound familiar?) blamed Spain. Today we can say with reasonable confidence that the source of the 1918 influenza epidemic was.... wait for it..... Kansas

Epidemiology and history wasn't as effective as you think in identifying the origins of The Spanish Flu. The origin being Kansas is only one of many plausible theories.

What are the others? If you have some sources I'd be happy to look at them.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#604

Post by lrem »

andai wrote: post #520
lrem wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "on purpose" bit seems highly implausible. AFAIU the ones with the means would have been the Chinese national labs and maybe their US collaborators. But releasing this right in their backyard would be an implausibly idiotic move on the Chinese part. Planting it by the US would both be terribly hard and a predictable own goal.

Would your definition of "on purpose" cover the following? > In 2015, an international team including two scientists from the Institute published successful research on whether a bat coronavirus could be made to infect HeLa. The team engineered a hybrid virus, combining a bat coronavirus with a SARS virus that had been adapted to grow in mice and mimic human disease. The hybrid virus was able to infect human cells.[1…

Oh, I read more into the "on purpose" than probably meant. Yes, a lab accident looks like a completely reasonable hypothesis to me. What I meant is that it's implausible that this has been released on purpose.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#605

Post by andrepd »

cratermoon wrote: post #297
turdnagel wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that is inevitable if the Chinese government continues to obfuscate?

Epidemiology. History. The Spanish Flu was called that because at the time everyone (for xenophobic reasons... sound familiar?) blamed Spain. Today we can say with reasonable confidence that the source of the 1918 influenza epidemic was.... wait for it..... Kansas

As far as I understand, it's called spanish flu because neutral Spain was free to report on the epidemic, while warring nations imposed heavy censorship for morale reasons, giving the false impression that Spain was especially hit.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#606

Post by bbatha »

bondarchuk wrote: post #521
rlt wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This research creates deadly diseases that may not have existed otherwise. This seems like a supremely bad idea.

Similarly smallpox has been completely eradicated, but USA and Russia like to keep around a few live samples, "for research". Whatever will wipe us all out in the end, we probably had it coming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_debat...

It’s substantially more complicated than that smallpox samples keep turning up in the US [1][2]. Who knows how many samples were lost in the chaos of the fall of the Soviet Union. Smallpox was in every country on earth until relatively recently simply destroying samples isn’t enough. Hanging onto them in case we need a new vaccine is absolutely prudent.

https://www.wired.com/2014/07/cdc-found-pox/ https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/scab-story

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#607

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

sumedh wrote: post #308
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that time a high up WHO representative was asked about COVID in Taiwan and he faked the video call freezing and disconnected? Then remember when they got him back he was again asked about Taiwan and said they had already discussed China? I remember thinking that the WHO wasn’t what it seemed. Just one small example of course.

Not sure why you are getting downvoted for telling a fact.

I know why. See my username.

I think in some years when we have better options and more transparency we’re going to reflect on this “person with the most votes gets speech” thing.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#608

Post by adolph »

btilly wrote: post #372
adolph wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the theory is that the US service members brought it with them and infected Wuhan. Earlier in March, Zhao Lijian, an outspoken Chinese diplomat, raised a suspicion on his personal Twitter account that it might have been the US army representatives to the Military World Games who brought the novel coronavirus to Wuhan in October 2019, after a top US health official admitted detecting coronavirus infections on some…

To the people holding the theory that I just gave, that's a Chinese disinformation campaign that is part of the coverup. They are accusing others of what they did. But, there is more than one conspiracy theory here. And probably will be forever. As a hopefully rational third party, I would like it investigated. But I'm currently giving good odds to "accidental release from program intended to research possible future…

The second order developments of “accidental lab release” could be far larger. Do people have the right to sue for wrongful death?

Given that the CDC and commercial companies were doing research in that lab, is the US just as culpable as China?

What was the reason for the CDC working with that lab? Aside from rationalizations, was it essentially just outsourcing the dirty work like any other polluting industry?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#609

Post by lenkite »

cratermoon wrote: post #602
lenkite wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just 14th Jan. The WHO had more than sufficient data at its disposal to avoid making misleading statements. All warnings from Taiwan in December were actively ignored. https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/taiwan-wa... https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3904054 Please note that the WHO confirmation statement on 22nd Jan came about after independent confirmation of human to human transmission…

What would the anti-China xenophobes be saying if WHO were to say, without sufficient evidence, that human-to-human transmission was happening and it turned out to be mistaken? Being skeptical is acceptable but not to the extent of rejecting the evidentiary process. Also, Taiwan News is notably anti-China and is associated with Taiwanese nationalists.

The WHO could have chosen not to ignore Taiwan's warnings and launched their investigation earlier independent of China's claims.

Being skeptical is necessary when considering China's terrible past track record. The SARS epidemic also started with a denial and cover-up by China.

There are many other news sources apart from Taiwan News. You can check out the FT. You can check out Reuters. (Decrying Taiwan News as comprising of anti-Chinese nationalists is rather strange considering the CCP's stance against Taiwan)

https://archive.is/nqiKV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-taiwan...

Please note that even in Feb, the WHO chief was saying travel bans. are not needed https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who-idUSKBN1...

"The head of the World Health Organization said on Monday there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade” in trying to halt the spread of a coronavirus that has killed 361 people in China, and he lauded China’s efforts to contain it." (real figure as we learnt later was already >10x by that time)

“It’s no reason to really panic now,” he said. “The chances of getting this going to anywhere outside China is very low, and even in China, when you go to other provinces, it’s very low.”

"The WHO continues to advise against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks"

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#610

Post by loveistheanswer »

justnotworthit wrote: post #198
loveistheanswer wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also noteworthy is Dr. Fauci has been a long time proponent and sponsor of gain of function experiments as head of the NIAID, the infectious diseases arm of the NIH.[1] After a few different US lab leaks involving anthrax, smallpox, and avian flu in 2014 the Obama administration put a ban on the fuding of gain of function research.[2] The ban was eventually overturned in 2018.[3] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/op…

I don't get why supporters of GoF experiments with CoV in Wuhan aren't shouting from the rooftops that (1) They were right to predict the danger of a CoV originating from that area of the world and that (2) their research, years in the making, is thankfully (despite opposition's cries of danger) here to protect us. Instead, I can't find anything about the latest years of their research.

>Instead, I can't find anything about the latest years of their research.

So, in other words, there is no evidence that GoF research is "here to protect us"?

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