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Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

theguardian.com

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Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#601

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

whatever1 wrote: post #427

EVs currently have high enough utility in the wealthy suburbia where you own your garage and have the capability to charge overnight. If you are a euro-peasant living in a third floor apartment, street parking and commuting to work, then an EV has very little utility to offer. You cannot expect that people will go on a regular basis to charge stations and spend an hour to charge their car. You cannot also have a reas…

#1 had a practical solution back in 1896: replaceable batteries.

At the dawn of the 20th century, the electric car was the most popular type of car after steam-powered. Their range was limited of course, but they had many features that were improvements over Gasoline-powered cars. So, how was it that many cities around the world used electric cars and trucks more than any other type? Two ways: 1) fleets where you could drop off one car and pick up another, and 2) an easily-replaceable battery. Just drive to a service station and replace the battery and get back on your way. At least one company providing these services operated for 14 years.

Funny how tech people always look for a tech solution, and business people look for a business solution.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#602

Post by s_fischer »

epistasis wrote: post #566
oblio wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrow minded approach :-) People don't carry around 35kg of groceries each time they go to the local supermarket. They buy a tiny bit of what they need each day, walking back from home/school, since it takes so little time and often it's on the way, anyway. Carrying 2-5-6-7-8-10kg is quite easy.

I've had a frustrating form of this conversation with so many Americans. The concept of buying less than 40L of soda at a time, because presumably they drink many liters per day, is hard to overcome for some. They literally will not believe that it is possible to but a days worth of groceries every day, and get fresh, quality food. But the more people saying that it can be done, and is a superior way to shop, the mor…

You're really comparing apples to oranges because the majority of Americans don't live within reasonable walking distance to a grocery store to begin with. Depending on where you live, it's not uncommon to take 15-20+ minutes to drive to the closest store.

With the return trip time + parking, you can see how it's much more sensible to plan your shopping ahead of time to optimize for the fewest amount of trips possible.

Even if you currently live in a borderline walkable area, there's a solid chance you grew up in an area where driving to the store was a norm and thus contributes to the decision to walk vs drive.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#603

Post by theshrike79 »

Noos wrote: post #591
theshrike79 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your job requires you to drive hundreds of km in the outback, then EVs definitely aren't for you and won't be in a long time.

Do you not understand there are these things called "industrial parks" "distribution centers" or "factories" that are often not put anywhere near houses due to noise, odor, and other reasons? Many of them in my town are often 30 + min trips one way down roads where there are barely any houses, let alone places that could host a charger. Another example; one time I worked for an inventory service which are the people…

...that's exactly what I said?

If your daily job involves long-ass drives in the middle of nowhere, do not, I repeat, do not get an EV unless you know exactly what you're getting in to.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#604

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

whatever1 wrote: post #463
erikrothoff wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m literally a euro-peasant in my third floor apartment with street parking outside my third floor apartment window. The city has but up a bunch of charging parking stations on said street parking and it’s great. There are no gas stations on the ”island” (Södermalm, Stockholm) I live on, but a ton of electric street parking charging stations. I think the decentralisation of these types of charging stations will win…

Let's take Madrid as an example of a typical densely populated euro-city. ~ 3M population, half a million registered cars. I really don't see it economically, environmentally, or even technically viable to install a quarter million chargers to fix the battery charging problem.

Many of these already have lampposts.

If the wiring isn't strong enough to support chargers (it might, for slow charging, if the cables were designed for old lighting technology), fine, dig up the street, lay thicker cables, use the opportunity to bury FTTH, and you can now place a charger at every parking bay.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#605

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

theshrike79 wrote: post #467
whatever1 wrote: post #427

EVs currently have high enough utility in the wealthy suburbia where you own your garage and have the capability to charge overnight. If you are a euro-peasant living in a third floor apartment, street parking and commuting to work, then an EV has very little utility to offer. You cannot expect that people will go on a regular basis to charge stations and spend an hour to charge their car. You cannot also have a reas…

People fixate on charging speed and forget that the best use case for EVs is to literally charge them when you sleep at a low current. If the the street has lights on it, they can be used to deliver power to EV cars easily. Adding Type2 plugs and kWh meters to street lights is not a technical issue, it's a political thing of who gets the money and who pays for the up-front costs. 230V/8A per car with smart load balan…

For people who commute to work, a logical place to put the chargers would be at work. It could even be mandated.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#607

Post by s_fischer »

jjav wrote: post #526
erik_seaberg wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how anyone is so casual about this. If a charger is only available half the time, I have to plan as if it weren’t there, and then what good is it? I can run my gas tank down below 1/4 because the Bay Area is littered with 24 hour gas stations; I never have to wait a day to get gas. I’m considering a PHEV, but I can’t buy a BEV until a large majority of apartments (or maybe employers, after WFH ends) have…

To be honest I'm not casual about it, it's always very stressful if I have to drive the electric car! I'm ok driving the e-car to work if I know for sure I can stay there until well past 7pm. If there's any chance I might need to leave before 7pm I want to drive my other (not electric) car. On the few days where I need to leave early and can't drive the gasoline car (because wife needs it), I spend all afternoon stre…

Imo, this is the single biggest argument that can still be validly made to prevent the mass adoption of EVs.

People, for the most part, are easy to convince when it comes to buying expensive products that promise to reduce the amount of stress in their lives. Not so much for products that they are told will do the opposite though.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#608

Post by epistasis »

s_fischer wrote: post #602
epistasis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a frustrating form of this conversation with so many Americans. The concept of buying less than 40L of soda at a time, because presumably they drink many liters per day, is hard to overcome for some. They literally will not believe that it is possible to but a days worth of groceries every day, and get fresh, quality food. But the more people saying that it can be done, and is a superior way to shop, the mor…

You're really comparing apples to oranges because the majority of Americans don't live within reasonable walking distance to a grocery store to begin with. Depending on where you live, it's not uncommon to take 15-20+ minutes to drive to the closest store. With the return trip time + parking, you can see how it's much more sensible to plan your shopping ahead of time to optimize for the fewest amount of trips possibl…

Agreed on the design of most grocery store in the US. Most people can't stop in quick on a normal daily walk, because the inherent space-inefficiency of cars means a long detour to hit multiple stops, whereas with walking it's an easy in-and-out grab.

However, even when patiently explaining this difference, it is a mental leap too far to consider any change. Not only is it the physical design of the stores and car-only infrastructure, a lot of it has to do with package sizing and pricing structure, as another poster pointed out; smaller quantities get massive markups in US stores, for no good reason other than once they've got you in a store, you're fairly captive and they want to extract the maximum amount of money from you so that you don't end up elsewhere.

Until people experience it, and realize that having a five person family is no challenge at all for this style of life, it's hard to give them the picture.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#609

Post by gonehome »

Daho0n wrote: post #588
gonehome wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild to me that no other car manufacturers have taken Tesla up on their offer for supercharger access. EVs without supercharger access are strict city cars. The electrify america network sucks, non tesla range is mostly bad (with a small number of exceptions). Even with decent range, lack of supercharger access makes the car a non-starter. I think Tesla's advantage here remains huge, I think legacy car companies…

You lost me at >this is even ignoring their inability to write or ship software If anyone cannot write or ship software it is Tesla. My Toyota is light-years ahead in the software and updating department and I'll never again touch a Tesla with a stick in my life. Talk about crappy software. No what Tesla's got going for them is first mover and that is over soon. Even cheap Chinese EVs like the MG is closing with Tesl…

I think most people would disagree with you on the point that Toyota software is “light years ahead in software and updating”, but there is some subjectivity here.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#610

Post by gonehome »

theshrike79 wrote: post #518
gonehome wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild to me that no other car manufacturers have taken Tesla up on their offer for supercharger access. EVs without supercharger access are strict city cars. The electrify america network sucks, non tesla range is mostly bad (with a small number of exceptions). Even with decent range, lack of supercharger access makes the car a non-starter. I think Tesla's advantage here remains huge, I think legacy car companies…

> It's wild to me that no other car manufacturers have taken Tesla up on their offer for supercharger access. It's a prestige thing. Legacy manufacturers would lose face if they'd have their cars charging at the young upstart's superchargers. This is why most european manufacturers have partnered with 3rd party companies and provide some amount of free charging at certain branded locations for new vehicles.

Well whatever it is, I think it’s a stupid decision that harms their potential customers.

They did nothing for ten years while tesla built out an entire network (except publicly complain about EVs).

It’s like Steve Ballmer’s video trashing the iPhone and then losing the entire phone market. I have little respect for that.

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