Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#601

Post by wlesieutre » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:03 AM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #575

mirimir wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple makes such high-end stuff, and is marketing on privacy, why can't they spring for hardware switches? Pine64 does, and they're by no means high-end. Not by price, anyway.

Better yet, Lenovo has a little plastic cover built into the camera under the lens. I don't need to trust the implementation of some switch, I can physically cover up the camera with a nicely integrated cover. No trust required for about 0.01¢ of plastic.

Apple's old iSight webcams had a white iris that opened and closed by twisting a ring at the front of the camera. It was very nicely built and you could see whether the iris was closed from across the room.

Photo here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mdpettitt/41991398752

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#602

Post by lukevp » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #257

maerF0x0 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

even then there probably should be some minimum "flash" time in that if it turns on and off faster than the LED lights up or human eyes can see then it may still take images faster than we can register? EDIT: a commenter below said "Macs newer than 4 or so years also have a feature that forces the LED to stay lit for at least 3 seconds after it has been turned on to prevent the single-frame-grab attack."

Frankly, by the time the indicator is noticed, it may be too late. Even with the LED wired in place and a 'feature' (capacitor or software?) forcing it to stay lit for 3 seconds, the damage may be done. It does, at least, let you know an attack occurred. I really think an LED is barking up the wrong tree. A built-in hardware cover would have the same effect as the LED, and no one would have to trust it, since the cam…

My x1 carbon has a built in webcam blocker slider built in, and it disables the hardware too when it’s slid closed.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#603

Post by kumarvvr » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #463

roenxi wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect you are probably correct, but it doesn't really matter. If you don't want to be filmed, the correct engineering approach is not to have a camera pointed at you 24/7. It is a bit like the gun rule of not pointing a gun at things you don't want to shoot - sure, the trigger should be enough of a control, but accidents happen. If you spend your entire life with a camera pointed at your face, your face (and activ…

Indeed, I'm a little surprised Apple didn't follow the Thinkpad approach of simply having a sliding piece with an aperture that extremely obviously blocks the camera. Surely Apple can't seriously think their users would be confused by this and complain... I don't think my desktop computer's webcam is likely to get hacked either but I'm still going to unplug it when I'm not using it. Complex systems are hard to secure…

There are a number of ways to do it, other than a sliding latch, in case Apple wants to avoid adding thickness to the screen.

1. Electrically blurred glass. 2. Polarizing filters 3. Power kill switch, in hardware. But I guess Applw will balk at this too.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#604

Post by mulmen » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #497

mekster wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And some apps like WebEx turn on the camera by default, which is insane but happens and until you click to turn it off, you're live. Also, if you're using an external display, then how are you supposed to notice the green light on the MacBook sitting next to the display? That Apple article is nonsense. I put a black tape over the camera and I know nothing including hacks can broadcast unintended scene. It's ea…

Tape? I bought 10 little plastic sliding cover things on Ali Express for <£2. Unless you're on a 100% China boycott (which I assume wouldn't permit a MacBook anyway) I don't see a reason not to use them. They're fine, permanent, had for 3 years and not fallen off or anything.

I use tape because it was already in my kitchen junk drawer and I literally never use the webcam on my laptop. It’s only a threat.

The sliding covers are fine but it’s just more effort to order one.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#605

Post by PostThisTooFast » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

In other words, we've made another flimsy-ass product for the sake of thinness that no one asked for.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#606

Post by johne20 » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

This happened to me. Twice. I bought a 16" mbp when it was released because the keyboard of the previous mbp gave me carpal tunnel. I immediately added a camera cover like I always had done on macs. My screen stopped working a few days later, but mbp still worked on my external monitor. I took it in and they replaced the display for free via applecare.

Once I got my mbp back, I added the camera cover again (stupidly). The next day I opened my mbp, and had a line down the center of my screen. That is when I realized what had happened. I then told Apple exactly what I think happened. And to their credit, the replaced it (again) for free.

Over the next weeks, I received 3 different calls from Apple staff, with seemingly increased responsibilities. They all asked detailed questions investigating what I thought happened and in what sequence.

I am not surprised to see this support article.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#607

Post by tehlike » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

zelon88 wrote: post #506

crazygringo wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. This could be solved in software at the OS-level with a permission dialog that popped up every time the camera was asked to be activated (as opposed to an ongoing website permission). Which would be overly annoying for most, but appreciated by a privacy-conscious minority. But unless Apple ever did that (doubtful), once you see the green light it's already too late. It does make me wonder if so…

Personally I think a hardware switch that disabled the mic and camera is the best route. Engineers would have to be honest in actually connecting the switch directly to the camera rather than resorting to some firmware tom-foolery. Then you could wire the indicator to the switch as a visual reminder that your camera is attached to your PC.

https://youtu.be/wLmiWPHPqhU?t=250 this might be interesting :)

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#608

Post by conception » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

shbooms wrote: post #597

hpen wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple hardwired the LED to the camera. It can't be disabled.

Hardwired or not, it doesn't mean the LED can't be disabled by malware: https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569

I can’t say if that’s still the case but that study is seven years old.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#609

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #309

soulofmischief wrote: post #160

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances. Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts when not in use.

Because people forget to slide the camera cover.

Don't put keys on your car, because people forget their keys. You can't use the fact that some people are not using something properly to say something does not make sense.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#610

Post by dahfizz » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

comex wrote: post #540

neltnerb wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I'm a little surprised Apple didn't follow the Thinkpad approach of simply having a sliding piece with an aperture that extremely obviously blocks the camera. Surely Apple can't seriously think their users would be confused by this and complain... I don't think my desktop computer's webcam is likely to get hacked either but I'm still going to unplug it when I'm not using it. Complex systems are hard to secure…

I wonder, do the ThinkPads with that feature have a thicker lid than Apple laptops? I suspect they be thicker anyway because of the touchscreen, which would then provide a few millimeters more room for a shutter. But I'm completely speculating.

I have a new X1 Carbon, and I don't have a MacBook to compare but I can't imagine needing my laptop to be lighter or thinner. It easily fits into any bag and I can carry it with one hand with no worry.

I will gladly trade a millimeter of thickness for increased functionality. It's the same thing where apple will ruthlessly optimize for thickness to the point where they can't cool the CPUs. They literally prefer form over function, as if the tool I use all day every day is an art piece.