Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ... they implemented a default that would kill processes when a user logs off Is that still the default? That’s horrific.
It doesn’t seem to do that on my Ubuntu 18.04 / 20.04 servers; I haven’t tried on desktop though as I don’t use Ubuntu there, would indeed be a huge violation of my expectations of how a system should work if so.
Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
601–610 of 645 posts
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#602Earlier quoted context omitted.
Chrome auto updates cause issues on the Mac. No thanks.
OK, what issues does it cause? And are those issues outweighed by the security and standardization issues raised by non-updating software? I don't know who all remembers having to develop websites compatible with outdated versions of Internet Explorer but I do and still have nightmares about it.
Microsoft itself ended up developing a somewhat more nuanced understanding of autoupdates than the current Canonical standard - business clients have various ways to override autoupdates. Surely Canonical can improve upon this standard, rather than learn the hard way the same lessons.
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#603Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if your goal is to bring Linux to the masses?
Well then there is a lot of work to do besides snapping and updates. For a normal user, the INSTANT something goes wrong in Linux, you step from “something kinda like Windows” to “100% Voodoo you are expected to know”
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#604Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think it's an over-zealous position from Debian not to redistribute firmware. Even systems that are very strict about licensing, like OpenBSD, redistribute firmware, because they have some common sense. OTOH I believe it's a position fully aligned with their ethical standpoint. Equating common sense with your personal preference isn't very gracious. If you want something that's less zealous about respecting (and…
I don't see how it aligns with their ethical standpoint. Firmware is just a blob you load into the device. The alternative is to have it already burned into ROM. What exactly do you achieve by refusing to load it? Are you more free in one case and not the other?
https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
you could perhaps offer to update that page to remove the ambiguities you believe exist.
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
My two cents, you don't have to agree but thought I'd just add a different perspective. I prefer my own package manager (pacman) over snaps for the following reasons: 1) I like to upgrade on my own schedule. I use my computer for work, and I cannot have things break in the middle of the day or in the morning, just as I get started with work. I usually save upgrades for when I less things to do, so that in case stuff…
My position is not that certain users would prefer to update on their own schedule. Of course there are. Or that new updates sometimes break things and that's a hassle. Of course they do and it is. The problem is if you want to distribute an important security update, what do you do? Ask everyone nicely to upgrade? How? Again, what % of users will manually update their software? Not a lot. For #2, that seems like a r…
"Greater good"? You sound like an ambassador for Red Star OS[1]. :)
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#606Earlier quoted context omitted.
The concern is that there's no simple way to disable auto-updates. If you want Ubuntu to turn into Windows, why not just use Windows?
Because there are so many different Linux distorts out there. I feel like at least one of them should be as newb friendly as possible.
That said, I don't think Newbie friendly and power user friendly must be at odds with each other. If you can figure out what the sensible defaults are, and provide simple toggles to customize things, you can cater to newbies, average users, and power users alike.
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#607Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's probably not a surprise to you, but this is a hotly debated topic inside Canonical. And I apologize for that thread, as it really doesn't represent our best attempt at external debate. Changing a paradigm usually involves pushing the envelope and breaking some existing assumptions; systemd is everybody's favorite example of that in the Linux world. The root of this issue with snaps is the trade-off between built…
Sorry, but as a fellow Canonical employee, speaking from a throwaway obviously, it's evident to me that you're simply not telling the truth here. You know just as well as I do that if you criticize Snap within the company, you get fired. Especially if Mark overhears you. There is no room for criticism. You either drink the koolaid or you shutup. So, no, sorry, we're going to keep pumping out Snap and those who don't…
But meanwhile, I'm curious about point 3 as you seem to have facts that I lack -- when a confined snap refresh runs through snapd, is the upgrade payload not executed entirely in userspace within the sandbox? I haven't looked at the code, but my understanding of the model is that the snap can only modify its own writable areas (and do stuff like add a symlink to /snap/bin, though that's also limited). So a snap update could't, for instance, modify arbitrary files, nor read restricted ones. Whereas a dpkg install can do anything as root. Can you help clarify?
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's probably not a surprise to you, but this is a hotly debated topic inside Canonical. And I apologize for that thread, as it really doesn't represent our best attempt at external debate. Changing a paradigm usually involves pushing the envelope and breaking some existing assumptions; systemd is everybody's favorite example of that in the Linux world. The root of this issue with snaps is the trade-off between built…
> The root of this issue with snaps is the trade-off between built-in security and user control. What this tells me is that I am not the kind of user you are targeting. I don't either need or want any such trade-off. I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own decisions about security; I don't need a third party to do it for me. So if your distro will end up insisting that I cede any control over what software runs on my…
There is a whole other set of users that would prefer that Ubuntu kept out of their way administrative actions for which they trust the machine to handle. They are probably more silent because they are mostly OK with how things work. And I'll say that I'm not comfortable with everything about snaps so it's more of a spectrum than binary acceptance.
Snaps were invented because we had a problem. We wanted to make it easier for software publishers -- think games, desktop tools, browsers -- to deliver their software to Ubuntu users, but debs were both too hard and too powerful to make that a viable proposition. In the old days, people relied on archive.canonical.com [1] from which debs like skype were published, but it was unsustainable and led to poorly packaged and out of date software.
Regarding third parties, in the end, nobody in the community reads through the source code of every patch applied to binaries in their systems. There is a degree of assumed trust in any update. I accept that trusting Canonical is one thing and trusting third party publishers is another, but given the motivation I describe in the previous paragraph, the decision to use snaps wasn't made in a vaccuum.
[1] Which still exists, if you want to go and check out the pool for third-party binaries. All of those installed as root!
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#609Earlier quoted context omitted.
Point taken on the shoddy behaviour, but if you'd like to try it out there's this helpful post on disabling snap[1] shared here[2] when I installed 20.04. Quick and painless! 1. https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-... 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22972661 *Edited
At that point I'll just use Debian.
Watching this snap thing play out, and in the past, watching Mir, Unity, and Amazon Lens, has provided steady confirmation that I've made the right decision to stay away from Ubuntu.
Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it
#610Ubuntu is doing more harm than good to desktop linux at this point in time. Continuing to push Xorg over Wayland. Removing support for flatpak (cross-distro way of using sandboxed apps) Horrible PPA system that works much worse in practice than the AUR or other ports systems. No daemonless docker (podman) Lots of people try Ubuntu since it is the "most popular" version of Linux, realize it isn't great and think deskt…
If it's so bad, then why is it the most popular? Arch is a no-go for most people and any sane IT department. Fedora doesn't offer LTS and RH/CentOS feel quickly outdated on desktops, let alone laptops. Ubuntu ships a distribution that works on most hardware and provides a reasonable desktop environment. While snaps aren't the most elegant solution, they do the job when your users need to install stuff like Jetbrains…
Marketing and brand recognition.