Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#601

Post by bb88 » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

foogazi wrote: post #594

bb88 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisons are arguably less important to society than education (since it represents the failing of citizens being productive members of society). However, prison expenditures were increasing three times faster than education from 1990 to 2016 [1]. Much of it going to corporately run prisons. And given the marijuana legalization trend as of late, I really don't believe that people see the value of locking people up we…

I’d say it is important to lock up those that hurt society But I agree that in most countries prisons are true hellholes In the US laws mandate certain level of care, and government prefer to pay someone else than handle the costs: unions, pensions for those prison staff

> I’d say it is important to lock up those that hurt society.

That's part of how we got here. Prison is just one option. Fines and orders to curtail freedom is another. E.g. Court ordered monetary restitution and loss of one driver's license are examples.

Here's a short version of how we got here:

1. Make more crimes to felonies subject to incarceration.

2. Imprison more people.

3. Remove felon's right to vote to make change to the current system.

4. Build more prisons

5. Privatize the prisons because government needs so much more of them now.

6. The prison lobby now argues for more harsher sentences.

7. GOTO 1.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#602

Post by pkaye » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #575

pkaye wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government would have to subsidize it as a cost of keeping society functioning.

Would that not just directly lead to it swallowing an amount of federal tax revenue proportional to other services that are subsidized? E.g. healthcare/education? And then proceed to munch on GDP bit by bit?

It might counterbalance a bit. It might create jobs for people. And having affordable childcare means someone might get back into the workforce and contributing taxes.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#603

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #582

DoreenMichele wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to say something like: When your caterpillar morphs into a butterfly, harping on how your butterfly is "failing to thrive according to standard, well-established caterpillar metrics used globally for the past thousand years and certified as super duper accurate for caterpillars by many respected institutions." is basically gibberish that says damn near nothing about the state of the butterfly's actual heal…

Just yesterday on HN, there was an article about someone spending 1 billion dollars to own every pop song ever recorded. Well, I can go to YouTube and listen to any pop song ever recorded (or very close to any), for free. So: How rich am I? I'm sure not a billion dollars rich, and yet... As you say, the metrics don't compute very well.

And, yet, you can't eat a YouTube song. So it gets very complicated.

There are many things that are more or less free, but a lot of basic essentials really aren't.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#604

Post by matchbok » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #488

jswizzy wrote: post #327

Pay is going up despite all these ignorant commenters https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/upshot/minimum-wage-boost...

They aren't "ignorant". They just can't admit Donald Trump did something positive. So they engage in logical contortionism like "tax cuts didn't help the middle class" (they did), "low-earner wages aren't growing" (they are), "he will start WW3" (he won't - he's the least militarist president since Jimmy Carter), "low unemployment doesn't matter" (it does - how else do you expect to create upward pressure on wages?),…

Yeah, no. Trump and co claimed the cut would pay for itself, yet the deficit and debt continue to grow. Job growth is consistent since 2011 and year-over-year had no difference after the cuts. Same with middle class wage growth - all on the rise since that year.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#605

Post by CivBase » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #466

CivBase wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try getting healthcare in the US without health insurance, and try affording health insurance when you don't have good enough work. I'm not offering an opinion here. I just think the distinction between health care and insurance is important. The original post I was responding to implies to some that you need a job to receive treatment. It also conversely implies that having a job means you can get treatment. I've…

In the US, the distinction between having health insurance and being able to receive necessary healthcare is not a huge distinction. Fairly sure you know this.

I would consider a distinction between financial ruin and death to be fairly significant. That doesn't mean I think a system that so frequently results in financial ruin is acceptable.

My intention is not to say "you're just broke, you're not dead". Quite the opposite. My intention is to say that health care access is not limited by whether you have a job - it's whether you have money. Plenty of people have money but no job and even more have jobs but no money.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#606

Post by foogazi » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

bb88 wrote: post #584

foogazi wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we’ve actually under priced some of the most important labor in our society (caregivers, teachers, social workers, etc), Who is we? Who sets the price? People obviously don’t see more value in teachers or caregivers, price should not be mandated by law

Prisons are arguably less important to society than education (since it represents the failing of citizens being productive members of society). However, prison expenditures were increasing three times faster than education from 1990 to 2016 [1]. Much of it going to corporately run prisons. And given the marijuana legalization trend as of late, I really don't believe that people see the value of locking people up we…

> Let's be clear, government should control the market, not the other way around.

Missed this one in my earlier comment

Wow

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#607

Post by njarboe » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 3:10 AM UTC

adaml_623 wrote: post #542

hacknat wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally, but now play the same scenario in your head if all the social workers or teachers disappeared tomorrow. Uber would be a societal inconvenience, but losing all of our teachers would be a catastrophe.

I agree. And to be clear I think I think it would be an immediate catastrophe as parents would not be able to work as they would have to take care of their children. Teaching is obviously vastly more important than childcare but teachers on their undervalued salaries provide both of these salaries.

If parents did not have to work or could take their children to work, they could be both caregivers and teachers.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#608

Post by wheelerwj » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 3:23 AM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #551

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the metric to use instead? # of households in America + average household income?

It sounds silly but happiness should be the metric. If everyone is happy you presume employment is probably good.

happiness, some equivalent, or some series of metrics that equates to it, yeah.

I honestly don't know what it would be (happiness, freedom, life expectancy, etc) but that's the goal.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#609

Post by wheelerwj » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #394

wheelerwj wrote: post #372

Yeah, so here's the problem. We now, more than ever, have a key metric for measuring the economy that doesn't really measure the right thing. Just like in every other situation, businesses and startups included, this leads to gamification and optimization for that metric. "Oh, you want more jobs, great! here you go! We'll cut the hours by 1/2 and employee twice as many people!" Unemployment goes to 0% but so does qua…

You’re right that this one metric doesn’t tell the whole story, but no metric does and they aren’t meant to. Of course you need to look at other metrics besides employment to understand how well your society is doing.

Right, but the point is that not only does this metric not tell the whole story, but that it tells the WRONG story.

Unemployment isn't a useful metric anymore.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#610

Post by JamalW » Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 3:33 AM UTC

matchbok wrote: post #604

m0zg wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't "ignorant". They just can't admit Donald Trump did something positive. So they engage in logical contortionism like "tax cuts didn't help the middle class" (they did), "low-earner wages aren't growing" (they are), "he will start WW3" (he won't - he's the least militarist president since Jimmy Carter), "low unemployment doesn't matter" (it does - how else do you expect to create upward pressure on wages?),…

Yeah, no. Trump and co claimed the cut would pay for itself, yet the deficit and debt continue to grow. Job growth is consistent since 2011 and year-over-year had no difference after the cuts. Same with middle class wage growth - all on the rise since that year.

The tax cuts brought in more revenue than what the US would have brought in otherwise. The deficit is growing because of Trump’s liberal leaning on social programs including the military. There is zero evidence the economy would have continued to grow under Democrat leadership.