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Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

bbc.com

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Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#601

Post by catalogia »

btilly wrote: post #594
jeffdavis wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a leader in many respects, due largely to our Constitutionally-protected rights. I'm not a fan of the US prison system. But are you seriously claiming that the whole justice system is worse than Venezuela or Honduras?

Our Constitutionally protected rights??? Amendment 1: Why is "In God We Trust" on our money? Amendment 3: The only time it ever was litigated (in Engblom v. Carey ) the government won because a bureaucrat cannot be faulted for not knowing such an obscure law. Amendment 4: Have you seen what the NSA is doing? Also "unreasonable search and seizure" is, under the doctrine of civil forfeiture, perfectly permissible as lo…

Amendment 1: Gives me the right to viciously mock ""In God We Trust" on our money"

(Which is worth a lot more to me than money without some pithy religious crap on it, which realistically impacts me not an iota.)

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#602

Post by strictnein »

tremon wrote: post #477
nemo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appealing to authority is a lot less persuasive when it's a non-binding report from a minor working group. I read their account. It was poorly argued and inconsistent. Should we really accept a case that's made because of the authority making the argument rather than the argument itself?

Then make your case on your disagreements with that report, not on your (frivolous) assumption that he would have had a fair trial.

When we all think of kangaroo courts, I know the first place we think of is... checks notes Sweden.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#603

Post by shadowgovt »

sachdevap wrote: post #599
shadowgovt wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without going too far off into these weeds: it's the government's task to deal with greys because the world is grey. I'll acknowledge it any time. The State Department keeps secrets, and keeps more secrets than it needs to. The NSA's full-time job is generating and keeping secrets. The fact secrets exist (and some secrets should be publicized) doesn't imply unbridled leaking of those secrets is objectively good, and…

And if those secrets are all there are, what good is a democracy. A democracy can't function in the darkness. What restraint would you advocate in not leaking all secrets? Where would you draw the line? Who should be vetting these papers under such strictly pressured timelines? On the other end of the spectrum, would you draw the line with Scooter Libby? Would you draw the line with Trump revealing state secrets to R…

> A democracy can't function in the darkness

A democracy also can't function with blinding light shining into absolutely every corner. Otherwise, we wouldn't see nearly as many people concerned about privacy in the democracies of the world. In practice, a grey balance appears to be successful.

> What restraint would you advocate in not leaking all secrets?

Some awareness of the possible impact of leaks, and awareness of the contents of leaked documents. Both Snowden and Manning appear to have failed to read all the content they leaked, which is dangerous. In practice, we have gotten fortunate in that there were no obvious immediate lethal consequences to the leaks. But hope is not a strategy.

> On the other end of the spectrum, would you draw the line with Scooter Libby? Would you draw the line with Trump revealing state secrets to Russians behind closed doors?

I'm not sure what lines you're looking for me to draw. So far, all the leaks you've named were dangerous and had significant potential for negative consequences exceeding their benefit. I'm in favor of impeachment of President Trump for the way he has chosen to handle the state secrets he has been entrusted with (along with a host of other, more pressing reasons).

> The double standard between those in power and whistle blowers is out for everyone to see, and there is little that can be done by whistle-blowers to be "careful".

They can always flee to Russia, it seems. ;)

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#604

Post by monocasa »

kls wrote: post #461
vintermann wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This talking point had been soundly debunked. Sweden kept up the threat of charges and demand for extradition for nearly ten years, but dropped them like a hot potato when the US charges became public (when Sweden's charges would only get in their way). Never mind that Assange was ridiculed for most of those ten years for claiming that US would seek his extradition. His understanding of the world, including the asses…

While I don't disagree, the crowd is fickle and has at best a short attention span. He would have been better served to face the charges while it was all going on and he had the crowds attention. He is in a far worse position now, given that attentions and the world have moved on. The US can pretty much railroad him and no one will bat an eye. Whereas before they risked making a martyr.

He wasn't going to face any charges in Sweden. They've let US intelligence just black bag people without any legal process before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_an...

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#605

Post by monocasa »

samdfonseca wrote: post #473
atoav wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Come out and we will tell you what you’re guilty of”. The US was once a great defender of liberty and democrac, but when you talk to its average citizen nowaday you start to get truely weimarian vibes.

His actions are entirely undemocratic. Sweden and the US have both democratically built a system of justice that we all agree to subject ourselves to. He decided to evade that system to serve his own self-interest. What about defending the liberty of the alleged rape victim? Do they only have the right to their day in court if the accused is ok with it?

How well did Sweden's democratic system of justice work for Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_an...

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#606

Post by dv_dt »

jki275 wrote: post #474
seirl wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the "few aspects" like the prison system, healthcare, inequality, corruption, homelessness rates, freedom of the press, air pollution, crime rates, discrimination, police violence, homicide rates, unemployment benefits, social nets...

Seriously, if you all believe everywhere else in the world is so much better, why stay? For context, I'm married to a person from a real developing country, as it's actually defined. I'm sending multiple family members to school there so they can get out. Every single person in her family has done everything they can to get out. Every single person I know there has done everything they can to get out. Every single pe…

Because whatever other faults the US has, there is still a high degree of free speech protection here. And any citizen of America is still free to promote their thoughts of what would make our nation a better union. If they desire, through criticism of what makes us an imperfect union.

Some people might even consider that act patriotic or a duty of a citizen to do so.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#607

Post by monocasa »

microtherion wrote: post #564
johnbrodie wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another take, with no more or less evidence as far as I can tell: He essentially had no choice, as it was obvious he was going to be railroaded at any trial, and would likely be bounced to the US at some point.

This was far from "obvious". Extradition from Sweden would have been harder than from the UK.

Extraordinary rendition from Sweden would have been much easier though.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#608

Post by whamlastxmas »

dominotw wrote: post #559
whamlastxmas wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The women did not accuse him of rape. They described alleged sexual assault, wanted the police to contact him to ask him to take an STD test, and the police took it upon themselves to want Assange for questioning in regards to sexual assault.

why would the article say otherwise though? it literally says they accused him.

To be more clear: the women did not approach the police with the intention of them pursuing any allegations about sexual assault. The accusation was made by police after hearing the context around the women's request. So while the women communicated circumstances that the police interpreted as sexual assault, it was not their direct accusation

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#610

Post by nemo »

stale2002 wrote: post #586
nemo wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He could have just faced the charges in Sweden. He'd be out by now if he was found guilty. His behavior and streams of lies about extradition, etc. suggest the whole episode was a guilty man hiding and foolishly digging in. His best option was always to just face the charges instead of fleeing justice.

But.... He literally has an extradition order out for him right now. He was right. His opinions on extradition were proven correct. How can you ignore the literal evidence, right here, right now, of everything that he had predicted, to be coming true?

There is no evidence of an extradition order from the US at the point when Assange first claimed it, and the extradition now is based on Assange being very directly involved with and directing hacks on targets, which is a valid legal justification for extradition.

Even if he hadn't lied in claims re: extradition, the current extradition is for credible and serious charges and he should face justice.

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