US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#601

Post by ConceptJunkie » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #450

roywiggins wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American shutdowns were invented when someone realized that the Antideficiency Act probably prevents the government spending money if Congress failed to pass a budget. We could, if we wanted, amend that act to provide for an automatic continuance of funding, but we haven't. Deadlocks like this are definitely a feature of our system that Westminster-style systems resolve differently, but shutdowns are an artifact of a…

Other countries have a "If we have no functioning democratic government the budget is the same as last year" clause as well as a "In the event the government can't do it's job, the civil service (when it's called that) keeps the lights on" Continuity of government is kinda the #1 priority of government as everything else they do is subordinate to that.

> Continuity of government is kinda the #1 priority of government as everything else they do is subordinate to that.

Well, to be fair, anything that is considered "essential" for the government to do is not, by definition, shut down.

Obviously, there will be differing definitions of "essential", but the continuity is there.

That said, amending the appropriate legislation to prevent this nonsense from being necessary when branches of government are at a stand-off should be the desired goal.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#602

Post by ConceptJunkie » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #285

warrenm wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a recipe for gridlock That was the whole point of how the government of the US was designed: it's supposed to be hard to "get things done" at the federal level

Yea, because the feds were supposed to only handle post roads, the military, and free trade between the states and tariffs on international commerce. The modern welfare state, where millions of people are immediately hurt by the federal system grinding to a halt and stopping, would have been anathema to the framers. Nevertheless by popular vote such programs have been federalized and now we have a constitution that d…

So we should leave those things to the states as was originally intended. The courts should never have tolerated the Federal government being allowed to do things which are not specifically enumerated in the first place.

That's where things started breaking down.

The 17th Amendment just made things worse.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#603

Post by SamReidHughes » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

notus wrote: post #78

mr337 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some banks are setting up low interest loan programs only for federal employees. They are low interest and are focused on amounts of 2-3 time your paycheck. Granted the rate things are going that might not be enough.

This feels like disaster capitalism. They are inflating their image by saving the day when it is a responsibility of the state to ensure this doesn't happen and to not use shutdowns as a negotiation tactic. If anything they are just prolonging people getting angry enough to do something about it.

If not agreeing to a deal can't be used as a negotiating tactic, what can be?

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#604

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:53 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #207

This should force Trump to end it pretty soon. The public clearly blames Trump for the shutdown, so Democrats have no reason to lift a finger to stop it while Trumps approval rating drops, and as more airports close, the situations surely becomes untenable fast.

Nailed it!

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#605

Post by csomar » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

In my opinion, the US can afford to do that. Both because it has big control over its population; and that people are relatively wealthy and banks are happy to help. Try that in another country and you'll very likely get an instant uprising with either salaries paid or the government thrown overnight.

In my country this happen with bus drivers (delayed payment of 1 day) and the drivers went on an instant strike. No pay, no work. It's that bad that for many, no payment means their life halting completely. So you can't afford it.

Some people do not realize how good it is in the USA.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#606

Post by TelmoMenezes » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:46 AM UTC

czbond wrote: post #524

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, of which the USA is a signatory, they do. Namely: Article 22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State,…

I think we were tripping up over my use of "entitle" - which I simply mean as not required to receive, without first giving. So, for example, because I exist does not simply mean I am owed a job, owed income, etc. I'm getting off topic a bit from my original intent, however.

You made a moral statement:

"No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses."

This can only be interpreted as a description of what you believe the values of your society to be. Of course, some people have contracts that in fact entitle them to work. But that is not what you mean. You mean that, in the abstract, society does not owe you a job, or a way to provide for yourself, or help if you need it.

The Declaration of Human Rights is also a set of moral statements. It is not law, it is a description of a fundamental set of values that the signatories agree are their own too. It does not go in the direction of "just because you exist, you are not entitled to anything". It goes in the direction of: "the point of society is to give people opportunities to life fulfilling and meaningful lives and sometimes they need help".

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#607

Post by isostatic » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #488

isostatic wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While ATC is of course essential, I'm unsure what different TSA not turning up would make.

An interesting question. If TSA does not show up, what happens if the airport just opens the security gates. That would be ... hilarious. Probably illegal.

I don't think it would be, providing the airport do the same 'quality' of checks.

If security instead got rid of the theatre of taking shoes off, molestation, etc, reverting to security as it was 20 years ago, but with a locked cockpit, it would be far more pleasant and wouldn't require the TSA at all.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#608

Post by shhehebehdh » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:40 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #447

shhehebehdh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that they literally must work. It’s that they can be fired for not showing up despite going without pay. Any private employer could also try this, although it’s questionable whether or how long people would put up with it. When the government is the employer, there’s some level of confidence that at least you’ll get paid in the future, whereas with a private employer once they stop paying on time they usuall…

Military personnel have to work.

Military is an exception to all sorts of constitutional rights.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#609

Post by learc83 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:52 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #566

learc83 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So they could have brought it up but chose not to They couldn't have. It requires 2/3 of both houses. Democrats never had anywhere near that many seats.

There is a substantial difference on bringing an amendment to the floor for vote and letting all those who disagree with democracy vote against it and have that vote enshrined in permanent record for all to see versus not proposing it at all because "oh no it can never pass with those darn toot'n republicans!". Its why the US Democratic party isn't seen as just objectively better than Republicans even in intellectual…

>For all their flaws, at least Republicans constantly brought bills to repeal the ACA to a vote over and over for years under Obama.

That's because they didn't care about actually passing anything because they knew they couldn't. Passing bills they knew Obama wouldn't sign didn't distract from what they were actually trying to accomplish.

When the Democrats controlled both houses, they were trying to pass the ACA, and spending time pushing show bills that have a 0% chance of passing wasn't what they wanted to focus on.

There's no evidence these kind of political stunts are effective, much less the only moral strategy as you are suggesting.

>Its why the US Democratic party isn't seen as just objectively better than Republicans even in intellectual circles

I don't know what "intellectual circles" you run in, but most "intellectuals" I know understand there is a clear difference between parties.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#610

Post by dspillett » Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

Mithorium wrote: post #459

dspillett wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EVERYONE should have min 3 months of income in savings. It surprises me how few do though. I do. Six months or more in fact. I'm in a relatively well-paid job (senior-developer-come-local-database-export) as of course are many of the people around me, in fact some should be much better off, but there are those among them who get edgy if a mistake makes our pay late by a day because they have bills payments going ou…

I have coworkers like that too, guys who've been working for much longer than me (and getting paid more), without savings. We're not working at a minimum wage job, how do they even manage to spend all of that? Do they not plan on retiring one day? You can't possibly work till the day you die

> how do they even manage to spend all of that?

Oh, that part is easy. I could spend everything I have and more very quickly. It takes a little forethought and willpower (and perhaps paranoia about the future) not too!