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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#601

Post by zaarn »

darawk wrote: post #586
zaarn wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also kept large numbers of people on the verge of starving while working themselves to death.

It didn't keep those people anywhere. They were free to go live as hunter-gatherers whensoever they chose. They chose not to do that, because they believed that working was a better life.

In later stages it actually did keep those people there because they either couldn't afford to leave the city without half the family starving and/or militia hired by the factory owner enforcing people stayed there.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#602

Post by skookumchuck »

bsder wrote: post #589
skookumchuck wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?

> So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed? My ancestors came here because life in the "Old Country" was so bad that braving the crossing of the Atlantic in cattle class on a ship, coming through Ellis Island, finding out that working in New York wasn't much better, and finally landing in the steel mills and coal mines of West…

And yet they still come to the US in great waves, 1.49 million a year, and many more try to get here.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#603

Post by 3x »

apatters wrote: post #200
3x wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> immutable biological trait So now your two SUVs and white McMansion with a picket fence are an "immutable biological trait"?

Please try to be charitable, not adversarial, toward the counterparties in a discussion on HN. I will try to do the same. I was characterizing what the parent appeared to be saying, so that I could discuss it (that greed is a part of human nature). I was not justifying greed. I rent an apartment and I don't own a car.

Just a joke, phrasing it referring to "you" wasn't meant to be personal.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#604

Post by bsder »

will4274 wrote: post #597
bsder wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also talks about the issues of measuring inter-generational mobility ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the...

I looked through the article but couldn't find a study to back your claim. Can you please look link directly to a study that specifically looks at the most successful members of the underprivileged and compares them to the laziest members or the upper class? I know a good deal about social mobility and your claim reads like something somebody made up. Edit: in fact, the Wikipedia article directly contradicts your cla…

I will try to find the actual study link.

Percentages hides values:

"However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery" - the parents to whom a child is born - are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb ... especially when compared to the top 10%."

And, those who fall from the top quintile are likely starting at the 80% point and not the 95% point.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#605

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

ejstronge wrote: post #316
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unable to afford stuff is not poverty. It's a symptom of poverty. Poverty is the inability to know how or be able to survive at a minimum comfortable level in our society. The causes are many, such as lack of education, addiction, early parenthood, good role models, lack of good health and many more I can't even begin to imagine. So giving people stuff and housing is only a temporary solution. The solution is so much…

> Look at Venezuela, they tried to solve their poverty problem very simply by basically giving people food and shelter without fixing the fundamental problem of lack of knowledge and the other problems that cause poverty and now they are in worst trouble than ever I’m sorry I can’t give you a better answer being on my phone. But, Venezuela’s current crisis has about as little to do with commoners working as you could…

I don't want to get too deep into this because we can go on and on on this but Venezuela's current problems have a root on the country's flash approach to fix poverty.

Hugo Chávez was brought to power by direct mandate of the underrepresented poor. He nationalized many industries which included the country's oil assets.

He used them to create large-scale social programs to help the poor. It seemed like a great success but once oil prices collapsed the whole situation fell apart because the fundamental problems with poverty were never addressed and we see the result now. An economy that's in chaos. The poor are in worst shape than when Chávez was elected. Not only do they not have what they need but now they have a president, Maduro, that's not fixing the problems because it helps him stay in power by blaming the problems on other sources other than his government.

Poverty can't just be fixed by giving people things. I don't know the answer but it starts by making sure everyone knows how to make a living in the society they live in. Yes, there's a fraction of the people that will never be able to get out and those are the ones you help with food, shelter and whatever else they need but you hope that that's a small minority of the segment.

There are no simple answers.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#606

Post by jlawson »

leaveyou wrote: post #279
jlawson wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story seems to indicate that studying hard and focusing on the future are necessary but not sufficient conditions to enter the middle class. I think the formula is that you need all three: -Relatively consistent work ethic -Decent decision-making -Some minimal opportunity Often the argument seems to swing between these absurd positions that it's all about just one of these and the others don't matter. Of course…

What I find amazing is that so few people here notice the consequences of working hard in a field that is not worth it anymore. His entire family should have slowly "pivoted" away from fishing long long time ago (the first/second year with a low ROI for the risk). The same applies to IT or any other sector. When the prospective ROI turns negative (subtract the total costs of your job(time/health/opportunity) from the…

I had the exact same thought but I didn't want to muddle my main point with it.

The immediate alternative that came to my mind is trucking. I have a relative who pivoted from factory work into trucking and working with heavy machinery in his 50's, after the factory jobs dried up. Though he definitely had hard times, it is certainly doable and beats dying or getting crippled working for pennies.

Though far from a cushy job, trucking seems comparable to fishing (e.g. you're away from home for a long periods, doesn't require much education) without the danger and backbreaking nature of the work.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#607

Post by TangoTrotFox »

citation_please wrote: post #554
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree averages can be misleading. As the joke goes when Bill Gates walks into a bar suddenly everybody's a billionaire, on average! At the same time medians can also be misleading. We have 50 people earning $10, 1 earning $100, and 50 earning $200. We swap to a system where we have 50 people earning $90, 1 earning $100, and 50 earning $300. There would have been a major shift upward with nearly everybody seeing maj…

This is a very challenging view-point, and I appreciate the effort you've put into backing it up. I think my biggest hesitation of accepting its results is the difference between annual income and wealth. By this study's standard, I'm nearly upper-middle-class, but I have a negative net-worth due to student loans. If my employment status came into question, I would be very quickly impoverished, and would have to rely…

Did you know that 72% of people with at least $1-$5 million of investable assets do not consider themselves rich> As that article mentions even multi millionaires are also constantly concerned about losing it all. Your situation does not change, at least not for many people. The numbers and reasons might, but not the general concern. Consider the ostensibly rich person with a fancy house, a beach house for holidays, a couple of luxury cars, and a couple of kids he's paying through Harvard. In reality that often translates into two mortgages, two car bills, and another $150k a year for college. It's the same scenario there. Until that wealth is 'consolidated', if his income slips up his life is going to be devastated. It's only the ultra wealthy one can start to become divorced from financial concern or even outright risk of ruin. And I think the fact that we can realistically set that as a goal ourselves now a days is probably a sign something good has been happening over the years.

[1] - https://abcnews.go.com/Business/study-28-percent-millionaire...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#608

Post by yawboakye »

hrktb wrote: post #529
yawboakye wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work harder than yourself you might still be at the bottom of the pole. It's a competition. If you work harder than the next person above you, you'll definitely earn (keyword is earn) better than them or live a more comfortable life than them.

It's all in relatives, but having a better life than the next person above might still be living dirt poor. I think what a lot of us a eluding to, is that some people can work as much as they can, up to burnout, without ever reaching above the poverty line. I think that would be basically fate for a minority group single mother with low education living in a poor neighbourhood. People could blame her for her life, bu…

> It's all in relatives, but having a better life than the next person above might still be living dirt poor.

This is true. But the fact that you're not fixed in your position and could live better is an incentive to keep moving. Thus if you don't stop at the person right above you then there's hope you can make the jump to a better living condition.

> I think what a lot of us a eluding to, is that some people can work as much as they can, up to burnout, without ever reaching above the poverty line.

Again, this is true. But whose fault? I think we could get rid of the concept of poverty line and let people decide for themselves. 2 person making $500/mo in California could be living different lives. It's possible for one of them to not consider themselves poor. But they're out of luck since their poverty status isn't defined by them. It's imposed by the state.

> I think that would be basically fate for a minority group single mother with low education living in a poor neighbourhood. People could blame her for her life, but except if her kid is exceptional in some way, he/she would also be doomed to be poor, for instance.

Story of my life. Illiterate parents, but committed to giving their children a better life. My believe that wealth is generational, that state should define a poverty line stems from this story of my life. It's less a matter of fate than decisions and commitment to exiting a terrible situation.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#609

Post by m_fayer »

marknutter wrote: post #542
m_fayer wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those…

America isn't a cruel society, it's a society that recognizes that life is inherently cruel. No amount of collective effort will ever change that, and so Americans focus on strengthening themselves in order that they will be better able to handle the cruelty of life.

Citation needed.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#610

Post by Firadeoclus »

yetihehe wrote: post #359
Firadeoclus wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if all you care about is yourself your survival depends on others. Both their helping you acquire the things you need and their not actively wanting to kill you. Societal collapse is your problem.

Now try to convince other people that they should do what you say. Not gonna happen, there will always be people that are selfish. That's one of the reasons why communism failed, there were too many people which didn't care about others or were just plain parasitic. I heard one phrase which sums communism up perfectly "Whether you stand or lie, 2 thousands is due" which means you can go to work, do almost nothing and…

> Now try to convince other people that they should do what you say.

What am I saying people should do?

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