New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary • Hacker News Board

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#601

Post by astura » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 4:18 PM UTC

ikiris wrote: post #220

nightski wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but this information is easily accessible from family & friends as the parent aluded? If so can you provide a link?

https://www.equifaxsecurity2017.com/

That data has been breached but it hasn't (and likely won't considering it was most likely a nation-state actor who was responsible) be released to the public. Even if it were it takes some sophistication to find the torrent, download it, import it into a database, and query that database. There's nothing easily accessible about it.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#602

Post by astura » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #539

conanbatt wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll disregard the use of merit, but how do you measure performance to make this claim? Im sure there are less performant lawyers in america that have a higher pay than performant lawyers in europe. AFAIK high salaries in the U.S. dont come at the expense of low salaries of the low performing. Doctors have constrained supply. Lawyers have a sort of costrained supply (your degree will determine your employment). U.S.…

I think people would find disparate outcomes among gender/race/etc. and claim discrimination. This will lead to more uniformity as employers try to avoid legal and political liability, however unfounded the claims of discrimination are. The not-so-subtle point that unequal outcomes don't mean discrimination seems to be totally lost in political discourse. You're right that doctors and lawyers are not great examples f…

This doesn't happen in practice though. 99% of adults realize that different performance leads to difference in salary. 99% of adults can understand why their coworker gets paid more than them.

The "market solution" only awards to the best negotiators.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#603

Post by syshum » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

whostolemyhat wrote: post #551

syshum wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont disagree with much of what you said, I am mainly speaking out against the pay gap myth. As far as disclosing pay, I alway deflect it and treat the question as them asking me what my salary expectations are, which likely ends up doing the same thing, but I dont think I have ever told a company what my salary was at a previous job My current employer never asked, they said "this job pays X per year" did get a sm…

> I am mainly speaking out against the pay gap myth I'm sure you're very smart and know better than all[1] the current[2] research[3]. [1] https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/... [2] https://www.accenture.com/gb-en/gender-equality-research-201... [3] https://www.strath.ac.uk/business/research/research/highligh...

At a minimum it does appear I have a better ability to read and understand what I am reading because none of those sources refute what i stated.

Number 1 is not comparing Equal Work and experiance, infact one of their summary bullet points is how part time women earn less than Full Time men... ummm yea. Part time people earn less than Full Time people.. That is not a earth shattering fact nor it is a symptom of sexism

They also point out that Part time women earn MORE than part time men...

Further most of the study looks at Overall wages in general with out comparing actual job roles to job role. This is a general misdirection often used by people that want to invent sexism where there is none. The fact that women often choose careers in fields that are traditionally lowering paying like Social Work, or Teaching is not a symptom of sexism

Number 2 is not a study

Number 3 is 404 page not found

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#604

Post by whathaschanged » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #555

alexanderstears wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do - I'm not sure how they licence it though or what data sources they use but I've seen that their data on high income households is the best in the business and shockingly accurate. However, I can't imagine the compliance nightmare that would exist around a process that lets HR people look up people's equifax information. If they get a full report, it could contain information about disabilities, national orig…

There is nothing wrong with HR having that information. It's only illegal to base hiring/firing decisions on protected information, it's not illegal to have it. Obviously it gets really tricky to prove someone did or did not use protected information in their hiring/firing decision, so it's clearly safest for HR to avoid having any of that.

Why would a resource department need information from payroll? They aren't the bosses of the employees so it's not like they are making the ultimate hiring decisions.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#605

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #596

mamon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They really do that in America? I rented a lot of apartments in my country and was never asked about my income, or had a credit check. The usual way of avoiding not paying renters is requiring first rent plus guarantee deposit (usually equal to the one month rent) in advance. No further proofs of financial credibility required.

There's strong landlord-tenant laws in most parts of the United States that make renting to a stranger a risky venture. You can't just show up and move all their stuff to the curb and change the locks if your tenant stops paying rent - you have to go through a court process which can take a while. Landlords are looking for tenants who are likely to pay rent, it makes sense they want to rent to people who actually hav…

The money in renting is if you own a gazillion apartments and can easily weather losses in one or two properties. It's hard to see the appeal of being a small-time landlord.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#606

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #371

fierro wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is kind of silly. Anyone could make a reasonable estimate of your salary based on your job, which is easily discoverable. At least enough to make a decision "should I rob this house." What are we even talking about here?

>>Anyone could make a reasonable estimate of your salary based on your job, which is easily discoverable. That would require two things, I guess. My name, and the ability to estimate my salary based on the company I run. I am pretty sure even if I told you both you'd miss by a significant amount.

I think you're vastly overestimating the sophistication typically going into selecting targets for home burglary.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#607

Post by syshum » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #500

seattle_spring wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's a real average that proves that a female teacher makes less than a male mechanical engineer. How does that help anyone, other than pushing a false narrative?

Well, it might tell us the shape of discrimination is less overt and more structural. Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman?

>>Why exactly was it that out of my CS graduating class of 100 there was 1 woman?

Why are you not asking why out of 100 janitors, or 100 trash collectors there are only 1 women?

I love how every time this subject somes up it is always how there is a lack of women in tech, never pluming, janitorial, auto mechanics, etc. Only Tech.

Do you ask why there are are lack of men in Nursing? or a lack of Men in Childcare, social work, or any other field that has a majority of women doing those jobs?

Further what does that have to do with the subject of the wage gap, which is defined as an employer paying a women less for the same work.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#608

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

87tau wrote: post #580

icelancer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But have you thought about why you feel this way? Yes. I don't want to increase my attractiveness regarding a house robbery, as I live well below my means in a developing neighborhood, amongst other reasons. I very much understand the concept of leverage and have no problems privately discussing my salary amongst groups that I trust. That doesn't include the entire Internet.

Being rich doesn't increase your chances of being robbed by your relatives or strangers, it's just the opposite it seems https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137

It doesn't seem like that link controls for the area you live in. I don't think it addresses the concern of being conspicuously wealthier than your neighbors.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#609

Post by wildmusings » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #602

wildmusings wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people would find disparate outcomes among gender/race/etc. and claim discrimination. This will lead to more uniformity as employers try to avoid legal and political liability, however unfounded the claims of discrimination are. The not-so-subtle point that unequal outcomes don't mean discrimination seems to be totally lost in political discourse. You're right that doctors and lawyers are not great examples f…

This doesn't happen in practice though. 99% of adults realize that different performance leads to difference in salary. 99% of adults can understand why their coworker gets paid more than them. The "market solution" only awards to the best negotiators.

99% of adults? Tell that the "70 cents on the dollar" people. Half of America is walking around believing that women get paid 70 cents on the dollar for equal work, when that is not the case at all. The data is that the average pay of all women is 70% of the average pay of all men, which doesn't even try to account for the nature of the work, and is obviously highly confounded by career choice.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#610

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 19, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

KekDemaga wrote: post #577

mcv wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't this be handled by a government agency? It seems awfully risky to have unaccountable companies trade your sensitive information around for profit.

The government is at least equally incompetent if not more so, at least if a private entity screws up you can sue.

The government is also not operated on a for-profit basis incentivizing doing the bare minimum level of security to shield yourself from liability.