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A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

visa.lafrenchtech.com

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Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#601

Post by ergothus »

weberc2 wrote: post #507
ergothus wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Continuity of insurance is an issue. My wife currently requires a fairly expensive drug (thousand+ per dose), and gets 1-3 months supply at a time. With insurance, it's quite affordable. (separate rant) Every time I switch employers, or my employers switch insurance, it begins a long process of getting the right info (the insurance always contracts out specialty drugs), then getting that info to the doctors office (D…

The question is whether issues like these are likely for the individual applicant and whether they're worth dropping salary from $120K to $50K or whathaveyou.

Absolutely - there are a whole host of issues to consider. I was just putting out an anecdote to counter the assertion that techies won't particularly care about state-provided health care. The original point is likely true for a good swath of people - just not all.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#602

Post by user5994461 »

NamTaf wrote: post #596
user5994461 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also means you don't get paid 8 weeks a year. I remember very well when French employers forced me to get more holidays, which destroyed the income I needed to actually afford any holidays at all.

French employees aren't paid on their standard holidays? It also seems strange that if you're working over the 35/hr week baseline and being compensated for it by extra leave, that you would not be paid during that leave. After all, you're working extra for that time off, so you've essentially just already worked those weeks in advance.

In accounting terms, your pay is calculated as hourly rate * time working. It's averaged over the year and paid monthly.

All the holidays are time not working over the year. So, yes, it is definitely lowering your pay.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#603

Post by digikata »

erowtom wrote: post #559
fornever wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris is one of the few places I would go out of my way to live in (at least without the current unrest), but the rent really kills it for me. That would be an instant downgrade in life quality that I wouldn't want long term.

It kills me a lot also. I'm planning to buy something this year / next year, I still don't know yet if it's gonna be in Paris or not. For the same price, in Paris I would get a 50m2, while in province (the rest of France), I would have a new 300m2 house with garden. It really kills me also. But you don't have to stop at this detail,

How are the prices outside of Paris, say a 30m away by train?

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#604

Post by muninn_ »

tostaki wrote: post #522
briandear wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$130k in the US with paid health insurance, 2-4 weeks of vacation and dramatically lower taxes, vs. $50k in France with more 'benefits' and higher taxes.. Are those extra benefits worth $80k per year? Social charges really crush the ability for French companies to compete. Then with CDIs making it almost impossible to fire anyone, it results in a far less liquid job market. Now there's even talk of actually forcing m…

As a French living in Paris and having created a company before I'm sorry but some of your points are simply not true and/or not relevant. > $130k in the US [...] vs. $50k Just no, a $130k salary in the US would be at least 70k€ in Paris. In others city it would probably be less but the cost of living would be much less too. > there's even talk of actually forcing men to take paternity leave Just because one organiza…

> Just no, a $130k salary in the US would be at least 70k€ in Paris. In others city it would probably be less but the cost of living would be much less too.

In regard to this, I think what needs to be mentioned is the number of $130,000/year jobs in the US for developers/engineers, even outside of NYC/Boston/SF.

I live in the Great Lakes Region in the US. The starting salary for most engineers that I see is $50,000-$60,000k and then those companies also have health insurance benefits and the like. The salaries for experienced engineers that I've seen are closer to $100,000 (~5-7 years experience), and you can probably nearly double that for NYC/Boston/SF. I'm not sure of the cost of living differences between Paris and those cities, but I think US engineers are unequivocally paid better, even if you account for all of the great social benefits that France has (and many areas in the US desperately need).

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#605

Post by user5994461 »

morgante wrote: post #598
user5994461 wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mention having more vacation. I know plenty of people who switched to contracting in the US so they could have more time to focus on startups and hobbies. They only work maybe half the year, yet still make more than developers do in Europe. Doubt that. Contracting in London is very profitable. That's possibly the easiest money on the continent.

Sure, contracting in London is "very" profitable but it's still not as profitable as contracting in SV/NYC. It only looks good in comparison because full-time rates are shit. Also, if you're talking about contracting then all the supposed benefits of a better work-life balance or vacation time are out the window.

Hum. I've seen your name before. I have the feeling we had a similar conversation some time ago over a similar article.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#606

Post by reacharavindh »

erowtom wrote: post #510
renaudg wrote: post #425

Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top not…

Update : Thanks for the feedbacks ! 1st update: Included mobile phone + Internet 2nd update: Huge update, completly forgot about one tax on the salary.. ----------------------- I'm French, I can give you some more details. I'm a full stack Ruby Developer, and I work at https://www.talent.io , the first recruitment platform for developers in Europe. (If you're looking to relocate in Paris, London or Berlin, you know w…

Just wanted to add another data point for comparison.

South East USA. All numbers in USD.

Gross earnings = 104000 / year Bonus + Stocks = ~12000 / year

Income tax = 31986 (27.5%) (Fed + State + Social security + Medicare)

Earnings after taxes = 84014

Expenses : -----------

Rent : 1 BR in the city = 800/month or 9600/year (Living by myself)

Utilities = 150 / mont or 1800 / year (Phone + Internet + Electricity)

401K contributions = 628/month or 7545 /year (My only retirement savings. I don't think there'd be anything in Social security in my time of need)

Car payments - 500/ month or 6000/year

Gas/fuel = 110 / month or 1320/year

Car Insurance = 150 / month or 1800 /year

Restaurants/bars = 600 / month or 7200 / year

Misc expenses = 3600 / year

Balance = 45149

I have a personal family commitment expense of 7200/year.

Employer provides health insurance and also 800 per year as seed money into my HSA(which I can use to meet deductible for the insurance).

Even after all this, I'm a dumbass who didn't save that much.

I think I'm at the best situation in terms of making money.

Plot twist : I'd most likely move to Denmark or Netherlands later this year because my GF is needing to be there. I'm taking the leap saying, new experiences and crafting a family life is better than saving money.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#607

Post by user5994461 »

Joky wrote: post #535
erowtom wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update : Thanks for the feedbacks ! 1st update: Included mobile phone + Internet 2nd update: Huge update, completly forgot about one tax on the salary.. ----------------------- I'm French, I can give you some more details. I'm a full stack Ruby Developer, and I work at https://www.talent.io , the first recruitment platform for developers in Europe. (If you're looking to relocate in Paris, London or Berlin, you know w…

> My raw income last year was appx 45K euros. I paid appx 5K to the state in taxes, only for the salary. Employee Taxes on the "Raw" salary are approx ~23% usually, that does not match your 5k. Are you talking about the yearly "income taxes"? But then your 45K were not "raw" in the French sense?

45k = 24XX € per month after taxes. (on 12 months)

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#608

Post by user5994461 »

_r2gl wrote: post #599
user5994461 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the UK. The comparison makes more sense. US salaries are a different story entirely. (We can't even get there because of VISA anyway).

Hmm, it seems that if I wanted to go work somewhere over there though, that it would be a crazy pay cut even if we factor in all the benefits

You can't, because if you're American and you work in the UK, you'll have to pay taxes in your home country on top of your British taxes. That will ruin whatever compensation you have.

Please. Let's leave Europe to European and USA to the USA. No cross continent comparison.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#609

Post by AceJohnny2 »

coredog64 wrote: post #251
LunaSea wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would still pick Berlin or Amsterdam over France. Maybe even Sweden or Finland because of the average English language level spoken in those countries even though the startup scene there is smaller than Paris.

France, or Paris? The joke my former (Parisian) co-worker used to tell was that he missed everything about Paris except the Parisians. I've heard nice things about Lyon: Largish city, easily accessible, and not full of Parisians.

Lyon? Pft, go to Grenoble. Friendly city, techies everywhere, mountain activities year-round, and it's not full of Lyonais ;)

(it was the classic regional thing: when we saw a car with a '69 license plate, we'd grumble ;p)

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#610

Post by Jare »

morgante wrote: post #588
renaudg wrote: post #425

Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top not…

I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to ignore that European salaries are so much lower. With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would. If…

You don't understand; this is not about what YOU (or should I say WE, highly sought-after engineers) can have. The point is that it is an ENTIRE COUNTRY (for the most part) that has access to those benefits and standards of living.
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