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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#601

Post by mirimir »

rmc wrote: post #567
ricksplat wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean as a Freeman of the Land? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land As an ideological position it has some interesting points to make, but in a contemporary legal setting it's difficult to find footing. My personal position is informed by Hobbes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book) ) in that we have to make compromise with our individual liberty to bring about a greater good. > "No arts;…

> in a contemporary legal setting it's difficult to find footing. Freemnan-on-the-land is totaly quackery in a comptemporary legal setting. It's like homeopathy, but for laws. It's Creationism, it's snake oil. Fundamentally it presumes/assumes that laws work differently from how the organs of the state think they work.

I am not talking about separation in meatspace. Or at least, only in subtle ways. Attracting attention is just stupid.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#602

Post by mirimir »

kawera wrote: post #570
mirimir wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you hit it via some VPN service?

I can reach them through a VPN, no problem at all to communicate with people outside of Brazil or with those connected through a VPN. OT: Intrigued and tempted by ivpn.net but the about page don't give me enough info to decide (no team, no physical address...) Where can I read more?

Whois has provider name, business address and telephone.[0] They say:[1]

> VPN was founded in 2009 by a group of information security professionals who met whilst doing their Msc in Information Security at Royal Holloway, University Of London.

I've never researched that, but I've worked with them for years, and it's consistent with my experience. They're good people, I believe.

[0] http://www.siteshowinfo.org/sites/www.ivpn.net

[1] https://www.ivpn.net/aboutus

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#603

Post by kawera »

mirimir wrote: post #602
kawera wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can reach them through a VPN, no problem at all to communicate with people outside of Brazil or with those connected through a VPN. OT: Intrigued and tempted by ivpn.net but the about page don't give me enough info to decide (no team, no physical address...) Where can I read more?

Whois has provider name, business address and telephone.[0] They say:[1] > VPN was founded in 2009 by a group of information security professionals who met whilst doing their Msc in Information Security at Royal Holloway, University Of London. I've never researched that, but I've worked with them for years, and it's consistent with my experience. They're good people, I believe. [0] http://www.siteshowinfo.org/sites/w…

Somehow I assumed you worked for ivpn, based on your profile. My bad! Thanks for the info anyway.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#604

Post by cplease »

ultrasandwich wrote: post #418
cplease wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. I certainly disagree with this ruling, but "no presence in Brazil" is wrong and contradicted by Facebook itself: https://www.facebook.com/careers/locations/saopaulo/ > São Paulo, Brazil 23 open positions > One of the most talented and diverse cities in the world, Sao Paulo is a hub for our operations throughout Latin America. Our teams make an impact by…

WhatsApp and Facebook are in fact still separate companies. Just making this distinction.

"Separate" as in WhatsApp Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Facebook Inc. That matters a lot.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#605

Post by mirimir »

kawera wrote: post #603
mirimir wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whois has provider name, business address and telephone.[0] They say:[1] > VPN was founded in 2009 by a group of information security professionals who met whilst doing their Msc in Information Security at Royal Holloway, University Of London. I've never researched that, but I've worked with them for years, and it's consistent with my experience. They're good people, I believe. [0] http://www.siteshowinfo.org/sites/w…

Somehow I assumed you worked for ivpn, based on your profile. My bad! Thanks for the info anyway.

I freelance.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#606

Post by ricksplat »

mirimir wrote: post #600
ricksplat wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I think it boils down to a freeman argument though - you're basically issuing refutation of your implicit social contract. While the sentiment therein is laudable it is somewhat premature. Though one has a great deal of independence in the cyber realm one is can still run afoul of limitations of the real world and her laws (as demonstrated today in Brazil). I think cyberspace currently is best categorize…

One can always be subjugated. By robbers. By terrorists. By ISPs. By governments. By whatever. So one does what one can to be left alone. And helps others following the path. But in meatspace, one blends in, doesn't attract attention. As in Vinge's True Names . Ultimately, authoritarian states may wither. Or not. But in the meantime, one can manage, under occupation.

Yeah but you can't "declare independence"

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#607

Post by ricksplat »

mirimir wrote: post #601
rmc wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a contemporary legal setting it's difficult to find footing. Freemnan-on-the-land is totaly quackery in a comptemporary legal setting. It's like homeopathy, but for laws. It's Creationism, it's snake oil. Fundamentally it presumes/assumes that laws work differently from how the organs of the state think they work.

I am not talking about separation in meatspace. Or at least, only in subtle ways. Attracting attention is just stupid.

You're always in meatspace - cyberspace is just another dimension to it. Unless you're Job from the lawnmower man.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#608

Post by gambiting »

aedron wrote: post #569
gambiting wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmmm your example isn't exactly valid. If I was selling something on ebay out of EU, and you ordered something from me to US, I would almost definitely not get in trouble for sending it to you, unless it was an item which has export restrictions from my country. Or to go back to my example of Saudi Arabia - if someone from Saudi Arabia bought something from me I would definitely absolutely not bother to check if wha…

If you sell in another country you are subject to their laws, an obvious example is consumer protection laws. This is a fact. Whether or not you are going to follow any rulings made against you is another matter, in that case all the country can do is try to block you in whichever way they can (like Brazil just did) and possibly prosecute you in absentia.

But...I'm not selling anything in another country. I'm advertising online and someone who bought the item asked me to ship it to Saudi Arabia - sure, whatever. I don't have an office there or a business presence. How would they prosecute me? What for? Their citizen bought something from me and then had it delivered to their home in Saudi Arabia - if he's breaking the law, then it's on him. Now cut out the post from this equation - imagine he came over here, bought the item from me and brought it back with him - how would I be held responsible for what he is doing with the item and where he is taking it?

And yes, consumer protection laws absolutely still apply. The laws of my country - if my country says that I have to give him 2 years warranty - of course he gets 2 years warranty. If his country says a seller can be subject to 100 lashes for selling prohibited materials - they can go and try executing this, I wish them all best luck.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#609

Post by mirimir »

ricksplat wrote: post #607
mirimir wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not talking about separation in meatspace. Or at least, only in subtle ways. Attracting attention is just stupid.

You're always in meatspace - cyberspace is just another dimension to it. Unless you're Job from the lawnmower man.

True enough. What I mean is that I don't wear disguises, have multiple sets of IDs, hang out at anonymous exchange sites, and so on. But one can compartmentalize cyberspace substantially from the rest of meatspace, and then compartmentalize within cyberspace. Or at least, that's my experience. Maybe I'm just not interesting enough ;)

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#610

Post by mirimir »

ricksplat wrote: post #606
mirimir wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can always be subjugated. By robbers. By terrorists. By ISPs. By governments. By whatever. So one does what one can to be left alone. And helps others following the path. But in meatspace, one blends in, doesn't attract attention. As in Vinge's True Names . Ultimately, authoritarian states may wither. Or not. But in the meantime, one can manage, under occupation.

Yeah but you can't "declare independence"

I can act as if I were independent. And as long as I can manage that, I am independent. Until I'm not, or dead ;)
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