Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem? • Hacker News Board

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#61

Post by tracker1 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:02 AM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #35

> Create a collaborative environment Stanford research studies document that women are more likely to dislike competitive environments compared to men and are more likely to select out of them That is not how it works. Tech is as pure marketplace of ideas as possible. So while we should all collaborate after the decisions are made, the process before them is by definition adversarial. We must nitpick and deconstruct…

There's a huge difference between, "I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from." and "You are a god damned idiot, what the hell are you thinking." ... I have to admit, I've thought the latter on more than one occasion having to fix a bug, or do a feature enhancement in a piece of software. I try to be more sensitive in my actual interactions though.

You can review, advise and even critique without being outright abusive. I tend to take similar arguments when people want to use curse word filters... tone is a hell of a lot more than specific verbiage.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#62

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:02 AM UTC

ozim wrote: post #21

malandrew wrote: post #12

A few questions: What does it mean to "leave the field"? Does that mean to no longer practice low-level work or to leave the industry entirely for another industry? If it is the former, does moving into management or another complementary area (like moving from engineering to product management) qualify as leaving the field? So what I've always been curious about is what percentage of women leave other fields? It wou…

There was article on HN some days ago maybe even weeks which was showing IT compared to other fields. It was about how many women work in field and for IT it was lot less than other. It was showing percentage in years so in 80's there was a lot more women in IT than now. Sorry but cannot find article, maybe someone will have link.

I'm also generally curious about the figures for men in female dominated industries. I'm a senior software engineer now, but I graduated with a degree that would have had me working in an industry that was overwhelmingly female (fashion). I think it's like 95% female. Most of my classmates were female. I didn't go into that industry because other opportunities cropped up and because that industry doesn't pay anyone, man or woman, well and you're expected to work for years for very little to get anywhere career-wise. Not once during school or after it did I feel disadvantaged in a school/work environment where I was very much a minority (straight cis male).

I have been unable to find any figures, but I suspect that fashion was an industry that had a lot more men working in it up until the 1980s.

http://amfi.nl/boys-fashion-industry-gender-ratio/

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#63

Post by natmaster » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

Earlier in the article the author states that both men and women have bias. Then we get this quote, "If tech culture is going to change, everyone needs to change, especially men and most especially leaders."

It would be nice to know why "especially men," with no foundation for this statement it makes it hard to believe as a scientist, and even harder to act upon.

Any revisions with this included would be greatly appreciated. :)

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#64

Post by tracker1 » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:05 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #36

rchiba wrote: post #28

> These biases occur unconsciously and without intention or malice. As someone who has faced situations where a gender microagression has caused workplace conflict, the above quote cannot be stressed enough. Just because you didn't have the intention to be biased or discriminate does not mean it did not happen. For some reason this concept eludes even the sharpest people. We all have our biases. It's about time we ow…

What is "gender microagression”?

Things like "... can you guys give me a hand." apparently.

I think it's a combination of things... on the one hand there is outright descrimination and bias... on the other, society is leaning towards overtly sensitive to anything that could be considered insensitive or biased.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#65

Post by natmaster » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:06 AM UTC

jmiwhite wrote: post #54

natmaster wrote: post #47

I'm curious about this quote, "Investors preferred entrepreneurial ventures pitched by a man than an identical pitch from a woman by a rate of 68% to 32% in a study conducted jointly by HBS, Wharton, and MIT Sloan. “Male-narrated pitches were rated as more persuasive, logical and fact-based than were the same pitches narrated by a female voice.”" They leave out all details on how the study was conducted. Does anyone…

This is addressed in the study[0] on the third page (4429): "The pitch videos showed images related to the ventures, but they did not show the entrepreneurs themselves. Participants heard the entrepreneur’s voice-over narration while they watched each video. This video pitch format allowed us to dub in a male voice and a female voice (randomly assigned), holding the narration script constant. After watching the video…

Thanks!

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#66

Post by rmc » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:07 AM UTC

owen_griffiths wrote: post #3

"almost all of them said they liked the work itself, but cited discriminatory environments as their main reason for leaving" If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment? "This is a huge, unnecessary, and expensive loss of talent in a field facing a supposed talent shortage." Again, if true, s…

> If the work environment is not to women' liking and has no bearing on outcome, where are all the successful companies formed by women who want a more friendly environment?

One explaination is given in the article:

"Investors preferred entrepreneurial ventures pitched by a man than an identical pitch from a woman by a rate of 68% to 32% in a study "

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#67

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:11 AM UTC

tracker1 wrote: post #38

Banzaaaai wrote: post #20

From my experience: 1. It is a pipeline problem (I never got as much women applications as I wanted, even with targeting a women audience) 2. It is a problem of not enough role models for women (so women do not see themselves in tech and do not aspire for tech careers or for becoming CTOs - women CTOs go a long way here). 3. It is a problem of the vile and toxicity of the tech community in general (just see all the f…

Wrt the pipeline, I have to agree to a large extent. I admit it, I'm biased on a lot of levels, not really against gender, but I will admit I prefer to work with men. That said, doing pre-screening of applications at a job a few years ago opened my eyes a lot. To be honest, I no longer hold much of any value to a resume... I've seen too many people with higher degrees and years of experience that can't seem to do wha…

> I admit it, I'm biased on a lot of levels,

> not really against gender,

> but I will admit I prefer to work with men.

You don't see the contradictions here?

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#68

Post by ousta » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:13 AM UTC

flipp3r wrote: post #29

Didn't read the whole article but this stood out to me; "Confirm that men and women with the same qualifications are earning the same amount and that they are receiving promotions and raises at similar rates (and if not, explore why)." Yeah, no. I have never worked for a company which pays employees based on skill, it's all in salary negotiations. If you work for a company where salaries aren't public, then this is t…

all companies pay employees based on skills. it is just that skill is not the only variable and sometimes not the most important. but definitely skills play a major part.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#69

Post by rmc » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:13 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #12

A few questions: What does it mean to "leave the field"? Does that mean to no longer practice low-level work or to leave the industry entirely for another industry? If it is the former, does moving into management or another complementary area (like moving from engineering to product management) qualify as leaving the field? So what I've always been curious about is what percentage of women leave other fields? It wou…

> What does it mean to "leave the field"?

You can read it in the linked article: http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/women-leave-tech-culture/

* "716 women who left tech"

* "I have collected stories from 716 other women who have left the tech industry"

* "Of the 716 women surveyed, 465 are not working today."

* "Two-hundred-fifty-one are employed in non-tech jobs, and 45 of those are running their own companies. A whopping 625 women say they have no plans to return to tech

Which strongly implies "left the industry", not "moving to product management" or "managing". 2/3s of them aren't working at all, not "promoted to management"

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#70

Post by natmaster » Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 8:14 AM UTC

"Don’t rely on self-nominations or self-evaluations"

I think this is the big thing that should be rallied around. This is prevalent, obvious, and hurts companies in more ways than just discrimination (not to marginalize that aspect).

Focusing on self-nominations means the most successful people aren't going to be your people best able to do the job, but people best able to 'play the game'. This is in fact not independent, but negatively correlated with skill. (Citation needed)