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The end of capitalism has begun

theguardian.com

61–70 of 88 posts

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#61

From the fine article: > individualism replaced collectivism and solidarity I find myself wondering if I am part of a remaining few who treasure that. I value self-sufficiency over dependency, moreso as I get older. I have come to realize that there can rarely be an imposed collective benefit that didn't come at the expense of at least one individual. The answer to "is it worth it?" will be dependent on which one you…

Internet mobs only take down powerful people and companies when those companies are built to facilitate those mobs. Internet mobs have completely failed to take down any number of other bad CEOs, or influence the policy of any nation state in a significantly positive way. The disconnect is leverage. You can rant all you like online, but corporations only care about sales and the bottom line. Unless Team Rant has a me…

This is why I mentioned Occupy, they had the people in place to make a meaningful impact. They were able to come out in force so quickly because of the free flow of ideas and information. It may have been that quickness that kept them from forming a cohesive strategy for achieving their ends, but that could be a whole 'nother article in itself.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're wrong with the definition of capitalism. Capitalism is not necessarily free market and vice versa. A historically accurate definition of capitalism (unlike communism for instance, capitalism was given name for the existing system and not for utopian ideal), I believe, would be that it is a system with two characteristics: 1. Most of means of production (capital) is privately owned. 2. Human labor is a…

I guess we have slightly divergent definitions. My definition being voluntary exchange and private ownership of commodity and labor. I also have nothing against democratic cooperatives, just as long as I'm free to carry on working in a market economy elsewhere ;)

The important question is what you're trying to define. Are you trying to define existing system or some your ideal?

If you're trying to define existing system, I would disagree that exchange is voluntary here, unless you play with words and say people are free to die of hunger. (Also it's not clear what "private ownership of labor" means.)

If you're as capitalism designating some other ideal system (based on your values), for example anarchocapitalism, you should be aware that these always failed too, sometimes even more horribly than attempts for communism. But then anyway, why would you attempt to call this ideal "capitalism"?

This is actually the basic contradiction in your thinking. You say "the system we have is not really a capitalism", so the problems (that many people see) are not problems of capitalism. But then why do you want to call it capitalism, if not as the reference to what we have today?

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism Corporatist despotism is the logical conclusion of any laissez-faire capitalist economy just as Stalinism is the logical conclusion of any Marxist economy. Businesses are sticky and over time will tend to clump together, for efficiency reasons, into larger businesses. Once t…

> This will continue to happen time and again until we put in place good checks against businesses consolidating too much power. Wouldn't another fix be public financing of campaigns and a ban on contributing private money to elected officials in any capacity?

You can always transfer money from point A to point B, the only difference is how costly and transparent that transaction is is. Banning private contributions increases the cost but decreases the transparency.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#64
post #2

It's interesting the Greece and 2008 global crises are usually brought up, but important to note that with capitalism comes a need for responsibility - especially regarding debt, and those failures were a result of irresponsiblity on the part of the governments and actors involved - not a defect of the capitalist system itself. In both cases, taking on massive debt and quite simply, living beyond one's or a state's m…

The problem with Greece isn't capitalism, that much is obvious. The problem is the EU was designed to fail. It was created in such a way to appease the dominant economic countries by guaranteeing the EU would not be a transfer union. This all but doomed weaker economies from the get go. Tied to one currency they lost the most effective means of combating budgetary and economic issues. Worse, as they become weaker it…

I wonder if it is possible to design a currency union with just a small amount of decoupling between the individual national bonds and the unified currency? e.g. all members of the union are required to make certain transactions in euro, but issue national debt in their own currency which floats in exchange vs the euro? I think this scheme has problems, but it seems like with the right decoupling points somewhere in the system, you might be able to operate the euro more robustly.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism Corporatist despotism is the logical conclusion of any laissez-faire capitalist economy just as Stalinism is the logical conclusion of any Marxist economy. Businesses are sticky and over time will tend to clump together, for efficiency reasons, into larger businesses. Once t…

> This will continue to happen time and again until we put in place good checks against businesses consolidating too much power. Wouldn't another fix be public financing of campaigns and a ban on contributing private money to elected officials in any capacity?

There's a significant competitive advantage to writing your own rules for the game you're playing in, so as long as that much power is concentrated in so few hands, businesses are going to find loopholes and other means of getting what they want. An example would be a business threatening to fire all their workers in a certain area and move somewhere else unless they were granted what they wanted. Boeing did that quite effectively just recently in the state of Washington and was able to get a massive, multi-billion dollar tax break. So now Washington taxpayers are essentially subsidizing the bottom line of an already hugely profitable business.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#66
post #38

I find the article lacking. Author makes a bunch of controversial yet unsupported statements. Even if they're true (something he doesn't really bother proving), the logical links from one to the next are missing. Ie I can't even dismiss it as typical Guardian progressive ranting - because there is no coherent story to dismiss, more of a hot-potch of terms. Putting it down in the 'not even wrong' file.

I can't even dismiss it as typical Guardian progressive ranting

FYI because it is not clear from the article, but this is actually a marketing piece for a book:

Postcapitalism is published by Allen Lane on 30 July.

Paul Mason is the award-winning economics editor of Channel 4 News. His books include Why It's Kicking Off Everywhere: the New Global Revolutions ('Compact, urgent, present-tense, declarative and addictive' - Andy Beckett, Guardian); Live Working Die Fighting ('Indispensable, brilliant' - Ken Loach; longlisted for the Guardian First Book Award); and Meltdown: The End of the Age of Greed ('Lucid and sharply polemical' - Oliver Kamm, The Times).

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#67

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

I think you're being overly defensive about his use of the word "capitalism", and in doing so have missed the entire point of the article.

> Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic.

He's not talking about the info-tech industry being capitalistic, but rather some of the contradictions inherent within a capitalistic info-tech industry. Relying on scarcity of a product that has effectively zero marginal cost is a very strange place to be in.

> Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism).

And anyone who's gotten beyond econ 101 knows that these black-and-white conceptions of the econ 101 capitalism have little to do with modern economic discourse or policy.

> He mentions big companies using public data, most of that public data is generated, collected and shared openly by private companies to start with. I'm not even sure what his point was there...

His point was that trying to make a business around owning, hoarding, and making scarce the public and private interactions of the populace at large (e.g. Facebook) is a shaky foundation.

> Then he talks about alternative currencies, something which bloomed in response to flailing, devaluing state currencies. Which is just about the most free-market response to state currencies...

This is where I started to become really convinced you had missed the forest for the trees. Yes, non-state currencies are a pet project of free-market purists. Yes, they are also a huge pet project of post-capitalists and marxists. If you would stop labeling the author as one of "them" in your political world-view that you are sworn to defeat, I think you may start to see a lot of parallels between what he's describing and what you seem to think of as "free-market capitalism".

> The next paragraph he references briefly the 'sharing economy', something pioneered and spearheaded by companies such as Airbnb and Lyft. Truly great success stories of consumer capitalism.

Again, you're so obsessed with your definitions of these labels that you're missing the whole point. "AirBnB and Lyft are private companies, therefore they cannot have anything to do with a large-scale transition in market dynamics!" sounds rather silly, don't you think? Especially when the author speaks incessantly about how new models are emerging naturally within old systems rather than the traditionally marxist conception of workers using the state to effect change?

> "The solutions have been austerity plus monetary excess. But they are not working." - What? Our public spending has increases by £50bn, how is this 'austerity'? The cuts have slowed down our public spending and even that has made us one of the strongest economies in Europe. So I'm not sure where he's getting the 'not working' from.

I don't know what world you live in where you don't think we're in a period of "austerity" right now. That's literally all that finance ministers and politicians and bankers and economists are talking about. Whether or not this fits your pet definition of what "austerity" should mean, the rest of us are going to continue using that word in the way that we have been using it and all seem to understand just fine.

> Most of the fluffy scenarios he describes, whereby private individuals make voluntary, mutually beneficial agreements with each other, is almost the very definition of capitalism!

Again -- you're focusing on proving the author wrong ("Haha! Contracts made without threats of violence are capitalism, but you said capitalism was ending!") rather than even beginning to listen to what he was saying in a holistic manner.

If you're fanatically obsessed with defending a econ 101 definition of capitalism: sure, you got him. There will still be voluntary mutually beneficial agreements; capitalism will survive.

For the rest of us: this article was not about the word "capitalism", it was about what arrangement of "voluntary, mutually beneficial agreements" can be expected to exist, writ large, in a system where marginal cost of production quickly approaches zero.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#68
"Postcapitalism is possible because of three major changes information technology has brought about in the past 25 years. First, it has reduced the need for work,"

The need for work hasn't reduced, it's just changed.

The issue is that someone will need to be doing the work and the people doing the work aren't going to put up with giving the majority of their pay to the rest of society (that don't need to work) for very long.

This idea will eventually lead to total wealth distribution and then the issue will be how you decide to split up the money.

Do we then need to have control on the number of kids a person can have? How about risky behavior (so health care costs aren't that high)?

Also, who decides how it's split up?

All of the articles about basic income and 'post capitalism' only take into account what will happen in the very beginning, which might seem like it's working.

They never discuss the long-term where 3 generations of families are living off of the system and the continued dependence of more and more people. What happens when the number of people on basic income vastly outnumbers the amount of people working? Will the government force people to work? A revolution? Starvation??

Capitalism is not perfect, but it's the one system that not only brought us the most technology and advancements, but also brought the most people out of poverty.

Most of these ideas aren't new. They have been tried and failed and are now just being re-packaged and prettied up into something that seems more palatable.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). Let's talk about this point as a whole. Firstly, I don't think it is well substantiated, and there are numerous examples to the contrary- Microsoft, Standard Oil, United Fruit, telecoms, airlines, railroads- almost anything which r…

Telecom-- a government granted tri-opoly. The FCC limits the number of organizations who can license spectrum in a given metro area. Airlines-- government regulated, airports are local government monopolies and they limit competition. Microsoft- Not a monopoly in any line of business I have been waiting for a long time for someone to come up with an example of an actual natural monopoly that exercises monopoly pricin…

Your requirements are absurd - Every business will be subject to some sort of government regulation that could limit barrier to entry. That's why your conclusions are outlandish- Microsoft was literally deemed to violate antitrust law in federal court; there are plenty of obvious historical examples (United Fruit, Standard Oil, US Steel); Pharmaceutical companies consistently exhibit price gouging in medical monopolies, etc. Furthermore, oligarchical monopolies, like the telecoms, are not somehow exempt- they operate, lobby, coerce, and consolidate power together, despite being 3 separate companies. Utilities are generally natural monopolies, not government created- the major barrier is the huge costs on upfront infrastructure, which dwarf any regulatory costs. Most importantly though, you failed to grasp the fundamental concept, that a government granted monopoly is not somehow uncapitalistic: it's hypercapitalism, the end goal of the system itself.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some might suggest that imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism.

Or vice versa. Imperialism is the goal, capitalism is the excuse.

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

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