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Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

williamdickersonfilmmaker.com

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Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you are right it is a false dichotomy. It isn't completely made up either. Greatness can (often) be achieved through abusively pushing someone to their limits... Like most elite sports athletes... Am I way off base thinking this?

Daniel Kahneman (from his autobiography, but he tells the same story in Thinking, Fast And Slow): > I had the most satisfying Eureka experience of my career while attempting to teach flight instructors that praise is more effective than punishment for promoting skill-learning. When I had finished my enthusiastic speech, one of the most seasoned instructors in the audience raised his hand and made his own short speech…

First, the demonstration Kahneman arranged is simply a demonstration of regression to the mean and is not evidence of the validity of his hypothesis.

Is the hypothesis itself wrong? We can test the validity of the hypothesis on all people by testing it on a subset: teachers with expertise in the subject they are teaching. Kahneman hypothesis implies that such teachers reward students only when their level of achievement is higher than it has ever been in the past and punish them whenever their achievement is below their highest level of achievement.

This does not hold true in my experience of my own teachers. I was occasionally praised for doing well or punished (in some sense) for doing badly but much more often when I spoke with my teachers they remembered trends: I started bad and got better slowly, I started off well but seemed to get lazy, etc.

In my experience teaching first year math courses I would only automatically remember individual achievements if they were very surprising. For example, a student who was failing suddenly moving into the top of the class on a test.

I think people have a natural tendency to focus on these kind of outlying events and assign them special significance that they may not actually have. Although Kahneman does not mention this tendency his hypothesis suggests he also believes this.

But compared to the interesting outlying events the vast majority of student's achievements are not memorable. This means a teacher will not automatically remember them. If the teacher does not choose to remember them then they will be forgotten.

Since a teacher's capacity to remember is limited, trying to remember all student's achievements or failures was low on my priority list. Knowing a student's general trajectory lets you tailor your approach when working with them on a problem whereas individual achievements or failures are usually just noise. Other teachers I knew seemed to feel the same way.

Of course my own experience is only a data point against Kaneman's hypothesis about people in general. I am sure there could be types of teaching environments where something like what he is suggesting could be true. If the performance of the students on a particular test were tied to the teacher's compensation or the opinion of people they respect or who have power over them then I can see how a student's performance on that test would get highest priority in a teacher's mind and this could lead to reactions of the kind Kaneman describes.

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daniel Kahneman (from his autobiography, but he tells the same story in Thinking, Fast And Slow): > I had the most satisfying Eureka experience of my career while attempting to teach flight instructors that praise is more effective than punishment for promoting skill-learning. When I had finished my enthusiastic speech, one of the most seasoned instructors in the audience raised his hand and made his own short speech…

First, the demonstration Kahneman arranged is simply a demonstration of regression to the mean and is not evidence of the validity of his hypothesis. Is the hypothesis itself wrong? We can test the validity of the hypothesis on all people by testing it on a subset: teachers with expertise in the subject they are teaching. Kahneman hypothesis implies that such teachers reward students only when their level of achievem…

> Kahneman hypothesis implies that such teachers reward students only when their level of achievement is higher than it has ever been in the past and punish them whenever their achievement is below their highest level of achievement.

Not really, Kahneman is talking about doing better or worse than expected, not about your best or worst performance.

Regression to the mean arises when following up on any deviation from the mean – though of course the more extreme the deviation, the more pronounced the effect.

Similarly, the effect of regression to the mean is smaller when measuring longer periods of time (less measurement error means fewer fluke outcomes) but it doesn't disappear.

Of course, it's perfectly possible that strict teachers are truly beneficial even when accounting for regression to the mean, it doesn't have to be one or the other, and Kahneman certainly doesn't prove anything of the sort, but it does shift back the burden of proof to those who would claim that strict or even borderline abusive teaching is helpful.

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the demonstration Kahneman arranged is simply a demonstration of regression to the mean and is not evidence of the validity of his hypothesis. Is the hypothesis itself wrong? We can test the validity of the hypothesis on all people by testing it on a subset: teachers with expertise in the subject they are teaching. Kahneman hypothesis implies that such teachers reward students only when their level of achievem…

> Kahneman hypothesis implies that such teachers reward students only when their level of achievement is higher than it has ever been in the past and punish them whenever their achievement is below their highest level of achievement. Not really, Kahneman is talking about doing better or worse than expected, not about your best or worst performance. Regression to the mean arises when following up on any deviation from…

> Not really, Kahneman is talking about doing better or worse than expected, not about your best or worst performance.

At a given point in time there are two quantities we need to worry about: how the teacher expects the student to perform at that point in time and the student's ability to perform at that point in time.

If the teacher is rational and has seen the student perform many times these quantities will be the same. I think the outcome is probably optimized if these quantities are the same at all times but in the real world there may large disparities in the values which can fluctuate over time.

Nevertheless, suppose it were the case that the values are always equal. Then Kahneman's hypothesis is obviously wrong. The student will perform better than expected roughly the same number of times they perform worse than expected (in the long run, obviously).

Regression to the mean exists, yes, but has no impact on the distribution of the events of being above the mean or below the mean.

I supposed that Kahneman would recognize this fact and he his reference to regression to the mean was based on a more complicated but much more realistic model where the expectation is not always aligned with reality. In such a model there must be a mechanism for relating the two quantities after each new performance/test/review.

I tried to think of how this model would work and suggested Kahneman meant that expectations were adjusted based on previous best values. I should have been clearer that other mechanisms were possible and that I was only guessing which Kahneman meant. Then I argued that based on my experience this is a poor model of how teachers punish/reward their students in general because it is unnatural and unhelpful to the task at hand. As this model is not valid his conclusion that people are incentivized to punish each other is specious.

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#65
post #55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thoroughly despised this movie. You don't have to like movies for them to have been good! You could despise a character while still thinking the movie was good for making you despise the character. That's an art. If they have a strong emotional impact on you, they've "worked" (other than if they're just crap) because you talk about them, digest them and question their messages. A ton of great movies explore the d…

Just because a movie evokes a strong emotional impact doesn't make it good. A strong emotional response can be highly negative as well. If the movie is made to create a negative emotional response then I suppose one can say it succeeded in doing so, but it still doesn't make it good to the people who view it negatively.

Good as in effective at making the audience feel what the screenwriter set out to make the audience feel, but not necessarily good as in enjoyable.

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#66
post #54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thoroughly despised this movie. You don't have to like movies for them to have been good! You could despise a character while still thinking the movie was good for making you despise the character. That's an art. If they have a strong emotional impact on you, they've "worked" (other than if they're just crap) because you talk about them, digest them and question their messages. A ton of great movies explore the d…

However, most (good) movies do have a lingering message, a thesis point the filmmaker is trying to make about people or the world. What do you think the message was in this movie, and do you agree with it?

It's a while since I watched it but I guess it's about the length some teachers will go to if they want the legacy of being the teacher of a great musician. It's about a nasty, revengeful, obsessive character who will stop at nothing to separate the wheat from the chaff to uncover a diamond or to screw over his enemies.

I don't think there's anything to agree with in terms of message since I didn't see in it any condoning of Fletcher's behaviour. Sure, in the end his approach did uncover greatness, but through seeing the toll it took on Neiman, I certainly wouldn't say the film advocates that that is how music should be taught. I also wouldn't say it contained a warning either.

There are several possible messages you could read into the movie, and that lends it depth.

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a musician, it's the human expression side that talked to me. Expressing your voice and ideas. Also the existential notion of time, no rush no drag, very important outside of the instrument. The final part was like being in a rocket taking off, pretty intense.

he did mess up the shuffle tho on the beginning building snare fill thing. good drummer who played it but he wasnt buddy rich :)

[deleted]

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#68
post #65
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because a movie evokes a strong emotional impact doesn't make it good. A strong emotional response can be highly negative as well. If the movie is made to create a negative emotional response then I suppose one can say it succeeded in doing so, but it still doesn't make it good to the people who view it negatively.

Good as in effective at making the audience feel what the screenwriter set out to make the audience feel, but not necessarily good as in enjoyable.

Saying a movie is good and saying the screenwriter is good at their job is two different things.

I'm going with the classic definition; good as in "satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree" or "of high quality; excellent".

Re: Why “Whiplash” Won an Oscar for Best Editing

#69
post #52
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Primer is the best film featuring time travel that I've ever seen. And yes, the plot is highly convoluted, and there is virtually no explanation. Also, it was filmed on a very low budget, and some of the key dialog is hard to understand.

Along similar lines to Primer (both in terms of story and production), you might enjoy the film Coherence...

Primer was great! I liked the gritty, detailed, realistic but fictional engineering in the story as much as anything. That aspect reminds me of the Neill Blomkamp films - District 9, Elysium, Chappie.
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