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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#61

Post by ak39 »

skrebbel wrote: post #52
ovi256 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.

Seriously? You'd take a job that requires that you lie about your personal life?

Agreed on your incredulity. I've never understood ethics behind such type of advice.

File it under Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people".

If there could ever be a treatise on psychopathy, that'd be it.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#62

Post by andrewchoi »

ionforce wrote: post #56
andrewchoi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a lower-income student who went to an Ivy League university, appearing more similar to those in power is an entirely different thing than becoming an "arse-licking sycophant". I'd argue that going to a so-called "elite" institution is more akin to learning a language by immersion.

There was a whole article about this recently... I forget where, probably the NY Times. Have you read it? Quite illuminating for me. Didn't even realize there was this whole issue/culture about being low-income + Ivy.

I have; it was a very solid portrait of one portion of the low-income/high-achieving cohort.

What most of these articles fail to mention is that there are three aspects to the traditional socioeconomic diversity narrative: low income, race/ethnicity, and familial educational achievement. As an Asian American whose parents both had PhDs, I've been in the unique position of having only one of the three factors affecting me.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#63

Post by jrs235 »

mreiland wrote: post #35
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

Yep, I've always believes that there are times when you find yourself in a place you shouldn't be in. It isn't their fault and it isn't your fault, just different people who don't mesh and it's best to admit to it and walk away. The cultural fit thing can be important in that a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group, to the point of people leaving due to getting such a negative view of management/busi…

> a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group

I consider a negative Nate an attitude issue not a cultural fit issue. If I picked up on a negative attitude during ht interview, the candidate probably won't be offered the position.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#64

Post by mgkimsal »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

Not the OP, but I don't drink alcohol in social situations much - typically not as a lunch beverage with team mates - for 1 primary reason: I don't like the taste. I have no moral objections against a glass of beer or wine with a meal, and occasionally will have a glass of wine with a dinner (usually not, because I'm normally driving somewhere as well).

I've done the 'go to lunch' during an interview, and beer came up a couple times. "I don't like the taste" was met with a reaction similar to what I imagine others get for "my religion forbids it" - abject disbelief and/or mock horror.

I will do spirits - love me some mixed drinks (vodka+anything) when I'm sure I don't need to drive anywhere (conferences at hotels, for example), but don't make a habit of it, primarily because... cost. I simply understand how people can routinely drop that sort of money on beverages as a way of life. 2 drinks for 2 folks at a restaurant can easily double the price of a meal.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#65

Post by andrewchoi »

ak39 wrote: post #53
andrewchoi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a lower-income student who went to an Ivy League university, appearing more similar to those in power is an entirely different thing than becoming an "arse-licking sycophant". I'd argue that going to a so-called "elite" institution is more akin to learning a language by immersion.

"appearing more similar to those in power" ... So you must possess the talent of Tom Ripley?

I don't think that's true; it's really more about learning the lingua franca of a different world. Style, hobbies, etc. I didn't know what "rowing crew" was until I got to college, and to be honest, I still have no idea how lacrosse is played.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#66

Post by mc32 »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

Some people have alcohol allergies, wheat allergies, some people don't enjoy the taste and some don't drink for health reasons. There are probably other reasons too, including some religious. But don't underestimate people's odd personality showing thru after drinking. Never the less, I can't fathom drinking being the necessary glue to keep a team cohesive.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#67

Post by arenaninja »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

I've never liked the taste. I always tell the story of how and when I discovered that I don't like beer, and how I've never had an inclination to try it again. Now that I think about it I did try it again when I was working overnight as a cashier during Christmas with another cashier buddy of mine. The taste was as bad if not worse than I remembered, and the other guy drank the rest of the six pack and I flushed what I couldn't drink from my one beer. I don't mind if other people enjoy it, but if it turns into a beer conversation I have exactly zero input beyond "I don't drink it"

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#68

Post by mgkimsal »

paragpatelone wrote: post #21

Companies have to be very careful how they define cultural fit. If they leave it open, it can impart personal bias that are not at all beneficial to the company. Maybe "value fit" should be used instead of cultural fit. Do your values align with the core values of the company. The top NYTimes comment below illustrates some of the warts of a "cultural fit". "Hiring managers who would never in a million years describe…

" it can impart personal bias that are not at all beneficial to the company."

Beyond lip service, most people are more concerned with their own dept or team vs the entire company.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#69

Post by culturalshit »

kator wrote: post #37

I hire for Attitude and Aptitude. If you have a crappy attitude I can't do anything to help you there. If you have the aptitude and your attitude is positive, can-do, willing to learn, we can teach you anything you need to know or you can learn it on the job. I too worry that "Cultural Fit" is becoming the new "don't like them" excuse of the day. I try hard to hire people who think about problems differently than mys…

Cultural Fit is, in fact, routinely used to make discriminatory choices that aren't rooted in anything related to what it takes to succeed.

Worse, people like Peter Thiel and Max Levchin celebrate this and encourage other startups not to hire women and not to hire men who are even slightly different than themselves. These are influential people and they're purposefully using their influence to make the world a dramatically worse place. You might think I'm exaggerating, but I'm actually understating the amount of discrimination that they encourage.

Good cultural fit is about being able to perform on the team. But most SV cultural fit is about being able to party with the team. It's a different thing.

The good news for founders who aren't bigoted assholes is that this means there's less competition for diverse talent, and if you can help those folks know that they'll feel welcome in your office, they'll be knocking at your door.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#70

Post by SixSigma »

arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

> until we discovered the changes he had made to how things were stored in the database without considering the full implications.

sounds like he found the faults in your infrastructure, you should be thanking him

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