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11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

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Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#61
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who spends a lot of time in other countries, here's my best, shortest attempt to explain: 1) The cultural trust and norms in our country are dead. Everything gets the most superficial consideration, there's no basis of reasonableness such that even the judge doesn't stop the machine, power is so distributed that there's no reasonable authority in place, and people like CPS -- who have difficult and cha…

It's not happening in the US only either...large parts of the EU have to deal with this bureaucracy, and the EU itself is probably the biggest bureaucracy of them all. You're mentioning you're upper middle class...middle class doesn't exist anymore, you're a peasant like the rest of us. You're right on the other hand about living in rural areas. I moved with my wife and kids from a big city 7 years ago to a small vil…

"middle class doesn't exist anymore"

100% agree with that. It's an outdated reference, like class and norms.

I'm familiar with the European beauracracy. It's not good either, but it seems to cut across a different part of the social infrastructure. It's a big bother, makes everything very difficult (like starting a business), but it's also tuned towards dealing with the melting pot-ness of the European identity issue. There are serious national and cultural stratifications across Europe that keep people really divided. There's no "us" and hasn't been for a long time.

Our nominal "us"-ness is now eating itself... "American dream" and "American novel" are both concepts that would mean very little to millenials, and those coming up younger.

I think what I find most tragic about what feels like the American mindset right now is how much it's ignoring how good we still have it, and how much better things could still be if there was a true interest in the greater good. We still don't have some of the really unsolvable problems that other countries contend with. Our perspective is blinding.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#62
post #58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How the hell did this happen? Standard: Some bad parents actually do exist. So, with a few such examples, some people who want to get attention get some laws passed and set up CPS with some really big powers, e.g., ones that violate little things like due process. Some of the laws mention felonies. Then the CPS department gets created, funded, and staffed. Then a phone call comes in, and CPS swings into action . Th…

No offence, but your comment would be more convincing without Hitler/Nazi references. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Some of the bad things government in the US does are as bad as some of what the Nazis did. E.g., grabbing a 10 year old child playing harmlessly in their own back yard, taking that child from its family for 30 days, charging the parents with a felony where they could go to jail, wrecking the family finances from the legal costs, TSA stealing from luggage and molesting women and girls, suddenly in the middle of the night breaking down the door of a house and shooting the family dog, shooting an unarmed citizen in the back fifty feet away running away -- such things are quite comparable with a lot, not all, of the stuff the Nazi thugs did.

In simple terms, what is in common is just thug behavior, some people (they feel safer in a group of several) with power and getting their jollies and feeling more powerful and, thus, more secure, from exercising that power over others.

Many of our fathers, grand fathers, great grand fathers, etc. fought for our freedom. Let's don't let power hungry thugs, paid by taxes or otherwise, take our freedom.

E.g., some years ago I was a researcher working in artificial intelligence at the IBM Watson lab in Yorktown Heights, NY. That's in the middle of Westchester County, the first county north of NYC. I lived two counties farther north, in Dutchess county.

I liked to work late so often stayed at the office after dinner and drove home at about 10 PM. So, if look at a map, sure, I drove north on the NY Taconic State Parkway. I was driving a Buick Regal Turbo T-Type, right, a banker's hot rod of the time, in very good condition.

For someone who has driven over 500,000 miles, I have relatively few convictions of moving traffic violations. E.g, my auto insurance bill here in NYS is about $260 twice a year. Part of the reason is that I watch for cops.

One night driving home in my rear view mirror I noticed some headlights looking like they were from a car gaining rapidly on me. Driving late at night like that, I tend to drive in the left lane because I can avoid cars entering or leaving the road I am on from side roads or the shoulder. So, when that car was about 50 yards behind me, I moved to the right lane to let them pass. Fine with me if they want to go way too fast -- go ahead, pass me, and be gone.

Well, that car shifted to the right lane also. So, I had changed lanes and slowed down basically trying to force them to pass me.

Well, it was a cop car with two cops.

I'd done nothing wrong. Instead, the cops had just seen a nice car driving at night on a nearly empty road and decided to stop the car for no good reason. Likely that's illegal.

So, they stopped me.

There were two cops, one really nasty and angry. He was a thug, out to harass a citizen just for his own jollies. He looked young, like he was a rookie on the force.

So, he had his jollies: He had me standing on one leg, walking a line, touching my nose, etc. The other cop stood aside and was not happy about the obvious harassment.

The thug cop wrote out a ticket charging me with something, maybe changing a lane without using a turn signal, e.g., when I was trying to shake their car off my tail.

While they were writing out the ticket, I was sitting in my car reading a published paper in applied math. The thug asked me what I was reading, and I said he likely wouldn't like it. He got angry and asked in a loud, threatening voice,

"Are you calling me stupid?".

I answered, "No, but the paper is quite technical and advanced and assumes graduate work in pure mathematics."

He kept harassing me, looking for me to say something he would use to start a fight.

Finally I just drove away with him standing there. They didn't pursue.

For the ticket, I went to court. The cops didn't show, and the judge dismissed the case. I handed the judge a letter describing the interaction.

That cop was a thug. He was loose on the streets, carrying a gun, making illegal traffic stops, harassing citizens, trying to start fights, basically a violent criminal, paid by taxes. He was using his power to get his jollies.

Lesson: Such things happen. They happened with the Nazi Brown Shirts. They happen with some US police. Apparently they happen with the TSA, DEA, DHS, FBI, and CPS. We should not give up our freedoms easily. In our democracy, we need to vote against such stuff.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#63
post #57

Foster parent here (from another state than in the article). I'm going to go a bit off topic, but I want to comment on this snippet: > [The kids had been eating] [o]nly cereal, for the past few days. That's not going to kill anyone, obviously. But if you're arresting parents for not supervising their kids for 90 minutes, it's more than a little hypocritical. There's probably a good reason for that: the foster parents…

The CURRENT situation makes the kids worse off in the name of making them better? I'd rather take having my parents late without keys for 90 minutes than being taken away from my family by force and have to grow up who knows where at age 10. And these kids from broken families then do worse in life. No offense to foster parents, there is a great need to take kids in after REAL disasters where THEY want to leVe - ones…

I struggle to find in my comment where I say that's okay.

> No offense to foster parents, there is a great need to take kids in after REAL disasters

None taken, but you seem to think foster parents are somehow involved in the removal process. Here's how it really works:

-Phone rings -Hello Mr. Foster, I have 3 siblings that I need to place. [Description of what they know]. Do you think this would be a good fit for your family? -Yes -Thank you. Can you pick them up at [location]?

I have no chance to say, "sorry, I believe you shouldn't have removed them. Please send them home." I mean, I can say that. But it wouldnt do any good. only the judge can make that call (in my state). I will, however, have an opportunity to expressy opinion based on how I feel after talking with the kid(s) over a period of time.

Obviously what is described in this article is a horrible situation. All I'm saying is that the way they describe the foster parent feeding the kids only cereal is most likely not hypocritical or even a problem. It's more likely them focusing on getting the kid to eat anything.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#64
post #20

Is there any corroboration of the story, or a response by CPS and/or the court? It's very possible I missed it, but neither the article nor the comments give a solid source other than the parents. Because the skeptic in me says that while CPS might be pretty bad, it's also not inconceivable that the aggrieved parents might leave out key details of the story. So I'd like to hear what CPS (or really, any other source)…

It's not fair when one side (the state) intentionally gag-orders everyone, to use their silence as proof that nothing happened.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#65

I say this literally every time a story like this pops up but, as ever, I'll say it again: Have the (adults) in charge completely lost their minds? Is the government so out of touch with reality that this makes sense to them? I loved going on walks or riding my bike to the shops or sleeping in/playing at home when i was 10 or 11, and yet now this seems all but impossible to consider? How the hell did this happen?

Many US citizens need be more afraid of illegal and/or improper actions by the government we pay to protect them than of the bad things government is supposed to be protecting them from.

That is, for government as a protector, too often the cure is worse than the disease.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#66
This literally makes no sense to me. At 11, I used to run, ride my bike for miles by my self. Hell, if I go to my parents neighborhood now. There are kids playing outside all the time. By this logic, I can call the cops, and get the entire neighborhood arrested. Can't think of a normal adult that would support this.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#67

Maybe it's just me but I'm having a hard time taking this story seriously. The list of affronts visited on the family (strip searches, cops pissing on property, foster worse than the parents, humiliation of the parents by the state) makes it a story sound almost too good to be true if you are looking to rile up your readership. No identifying information is another big red flag, the parents of the free range kids has…

More stuff got posted today, but if anything it just muddies the water further.

Romanesko posted it to his Facebook feed yesterday after a journalist forwarded it to him calling it "bullshit". People have been picking the story apart since then. Some telling bits:

* Florida doesn't have "Child Protective Services", the proper noun Skenazy repeatedly uses; Florida has a DCF.

* Skenazy's story claims that the parents were unable to visit their child because the relative they left them with lived across county lines. But a felony charge doesn't prevent you from crossing county lines.

* By Skenazy's own account (I'm surprised I missed this): the kids were placed in longer-term foster care because the "slightly problematic" relative they left them with put them back in foster care without informing the parents.

* It's apparently not normal process in Florida for neglect charges to create both civil and criminal cases. I think it's also possible Skenazy, who is not an attorney, is confused: there may be civil-looking paperwork required to place the kids in temporary care.

* A careful reading of the original story suggests that the kid(s?) may have been locked out longer than 90 minutes; the timespans you have to account for are: the time before the neighbor noticed the kid(s?) out in the rain, the time after that where the kids remain outside unattended until the police arrive, and then the time it took for the police to wait at the house with the kids (which also doesn't sound right; why didn't they just take the kids to the station?).

What we actually know right now:

* Somebody set of parents in Florida, who may or may not live in the same place (the single page of court documentation posted lists them separately) had some sort of run-in with juvenile court involve one or more kids.

* A lawyer reviewed paperwork not yet released and said that it corroborates the parents story.

Of course, the parents could be reporting accurately the actions of the police on that day, but leaving out a bunch of additional context from prior to that day.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CURRENT situation makes the kids worse off in the name of making them better? I'd rather take having my parents late without keys for 90 minutes than being taken away from my family by force and have to grow up who knows where at age 10. And these kids from broken families then do worse in life. No offense to foster parents, there is a great need to take kids in after REAL disasters where THEY want to leVe - ones…

I struggle to find in my comment where I say that's okay. > No offense to foster parents, there is a great need to take kids in after REAL disasters None taken, but you seem to think foster parents are somehow involved in the removal process. Here's how it really works: -Phone rings -Hello Mr. Foster, I have 3 siblings that I need to place. [Description of what they know]. Do you think this would be a good fit for yo…

Oh, I see. If that's all you were saying then I wasn't responding to that. And I didn't mean to imply that the foster parents are responsible for the kids being taken away. Although it is good to know the foster parents can really have a voice in the process after talking with the kid, who may insist that they want to be back home.

I'm just saying the SYSTEM seems broken if one phonecall from a stranger can turn average parents into felons and kids into effectively orphans.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to find in my comment where I say that's okay. > No offense to foster parents, there is a great need to take kids in after REAL disasters None taken, but you seem to think foster parents are somehow involved in the removal process. Here's how it really works: -Phone rings -Hello Mr. Foster, I have 3 siblings that I need to place. [Description of what they know]. Do you think this would be a good fit for yo…

Oh, I see. If that's all you were saying then I wasn't responding to that. And I didn't mean to imply that the foster parents are responsible for the kids being taken away. Although it is good to know the foster parents can really have a voice in the process after talking with the kid, who may insist that they want to be back home. I'm just saying the SYSTEM seems broken if one phonecall from a stranger can turn aver…

At least where I live, as the case progresses and the foster parents create a bond with the kids, they really take what the foster parents say in heavy consideration. Especially if the kids have been assigned a good Guardian Ad Litem (the child's own lawyer).

The system can be broken. This is something that's governed very differently between states. And some states are far more broken than others. I think Utah (where I live) has a very good system (one of the few government programs I've learned a lot about and haven't been frustrated with how my tax dollars are spent). The numbers I'm familiar with say that 66% of all cases end with the kids going home with the parents. However, another statistic that makes that number much more impressive is that 75% of all cases, meth is involved in the home. So the state really works hard with the biological parents and places a heavy emphasis on reunification (as long as the kids will be safe from illegal activities) and the bio parents get a lot of government supported rehab no matter what the case is (ranging from parenting classes to alcohol/drug rehab). If you do the math, that means a lot of parents are successfully getting the rehab they need to they can support their children. I think that's impressive.

Re: 11-Year-Old Boy Played in His Yard. CPS Took Him, Felony Charge for Parents

#70

I say this literally every time a story like this pops up but, as ever, I'll say it again: Have the (adults) in charge completely lost their minds? Is the government so out of touch with reality that this makes sense to them? I loved going on walks or riding my bike to the shops or sleeping in/playing at home when i was 10 or 11, and yet now this seems all but impossible to consider? How the hell did this happen?

Let's look at this slightly differently: Suppose the 10 year old child the CPS abducted from playing safely in their back yard was -- right, you guessed it -- a girl.

In this case some fathers might -- I won't if only because I'm not a father -- might, ..., might, right, what's the term?

CPS abducted his 10 year old daughter: Zuilly makes a bundle selling pretty princess and angel clothes to grand parents for their grand daughters, often just 10. Those princess, angel clothes indicate some of the protective emotions grand parents and parents have for daughters, e.g., Perfect Daughter. In our society, there are strong norms that girls are cared for, protected.

And CPS abducts her? Perfect daughter?

Am I getting to make this situation clear?

Okay, maybe it's her dear dad or her dear uncle, one or both fresh back from Akrapistan, maybe Army Rangers, maybe Seal Team 6. And CPS abducted Perfect Daughter playing safely in her backyard?

CPS might be in line for a Darwin award.

Looks like Perfect Daughter needs two or three very devoted, young, healthy German Shepards or Rotweilers.

CPS overreach is not all just click bait: I know a family, well known coast to coast, in US finance, famous name, wealthy, generous philanthropists. Well, at one point a son of about 8 in the family fell and, maybe, bruised his arm or some such.

Well, somehow CPS paid a visit. Insisted on getting involved. Issued this and that order to the parents.

Absurd. Wacko. Overreach.

If my startup works, I get financially comfortable, and CPS or some such makes trouble for the nephews, nieces, etc. in my family, then I will go to a big, powerful, all-go, never-stop, nail'em to the wall law firm and see just how much legal trouble we can cause CPS and its wackos.

If they want a legal fight and my checkbook is much thicker than theirs, then bring it on. It will be a good purpose for my startup work.

I don't like gumment wackos hurting families and children.

It's happened. It shouldn't.

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