Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–69 of 69 posts

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#61

Post by danieltillett »

Jem wrote: post #57
danieltillett wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could not pay your mortgage could you not sell and rent privately? Please don't take this as a critism of your decision - I made mine and I am happy with my choice, but I don't expect that what is best for me is best for everyone.

Private renting in my area (as with a lot of places in the UK) would be more costly than my current mortgage. I didn't think you were criticising parents who use childcare, least of all me, but I do feel it's necessary for people to understand that the "I'm too good for daycare" argument comes from a position of massive privilege.

Sounds like a crazy situation if a mortgage and all the associated costs is less than renting - here in Australia it is considerably cheaper to rent.

I don't think the choice of not using daycare is one that can only be made from a position of massive privilege, but it does involve material sacrifices if you are middle class.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#62

Post by Jem »

danieltillett wrote: post #60
Jem wrote: post #48

Are there any studies on working father's impact on children? (A quick google returns a few studies on father's impact but not working ones specifically.) Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you work, you're a neglectful parent. If you don't, you're sucking off the state. (UK stereotypes) I have done the 3 main variants of parent-work balance (staying at home, working at home, working out of the home) with my 2…

To answer your first question there is little incentive to look into this question as no one with serious money wants to know the answer. Which of the three options was best for you?

Hard to say. As a stay at home mum I felt unfulfilled and lonely. In the early years of returning to work full time I felt guilty for leaving my child in daycare. Working at home (with a mix of juggling kids and some daycare) I felt isolated and over-worked.

I'm actually in the process of working my notice at my current job so that I can return to working from home, but as it stands I have no intention of reducing my son's hours in childcare.

I'd like to think that I can find a balance between working (for mental satisfaction as well as financial reasons) and time with my youngest outside of childcare, but this depends on my success in the coming months. If nothing else my son starts school in September 2016 so at least I won't have a ~£645 childcare bill each month :)

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#63

Post by Jem »

danieltillett wrote: post #61
Jem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private renting in my area (as with a lot of places in the UK) would be more costly than my current mortgage. I didn't think you were criticising parents who use childcare, least of all me, but I do feel it's necessary for people to understand that the "I'm too good for daycare" argument comes from a position of massive privilege.

Sounds like a crazy situation if a mortgage and all the associated costs is less than renting - here in Australia it is considerably cheaper to rent. I don't think the choice of not using daycare is one that can only be made from a position of massive privilege, but it does involve material sacrifices if you are middle class.

My mortgage is £477 p/m on a small 2 bedroom semi-detached house. To rent I'd be looking at ~£600p/m for a small 2 bedroom flat (apartment). I'd still have to pay the same utilities etc so wouldn't be better off by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#64

Post by gumby »

rayiner wrote: post #4

I never understood the idea that having mom (or dad) at home is the best thing for kids. When our daughter is at daycare, she's in a very stimulating environment staffed by energetic 22-year olds on 6 hour shifts. When she's at home with me my instinct is to bribe her with some ice cream and park her in front of her iPad. My wife has slightly more desire to engage with the kid, but no more energy for it--she's pretty…

A very stimulating environment isn't what a kid always needs. Quite apart from inter-kid differences, the downtime is just as important. My kid got a lot from just being carried around (or later following us around) while we continuously narrated what we were doing (laundry: look here, we match up the socks by colour; cooking: watch out this knife is very sharp but see how the carrots come apart). So net not a huge increase in time.

BUT kids are super exhausting and demanding and if you are worn out you won't be able to help them much either. I tried not to bring up my kid the way you describe, but I have to say there were plenty of times when I did the equivalent (no iPads or TVs in our case but essentially much the same). He came out fine.

There is no perfect system and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for someone else.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#65

Post by Torgo »

roel_v wrote: post #37
ams6110 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody will care for or about a child more than that child's mother (barring psychological abnormalities in the mother). Father a close second. Even the best daycare is going to devote only a fraction of the instruction/attention to any individual child. If your approach as a parent is to give "the kid" ice cream and electronic distractions, I think you should seriously reevaluate your priorities.

"Nobody will care for or about a child more than that child's mother (barring psychological abnormalities in the mother)." Well, technically I guess I can't disagree with you because you said 'care... more', but I assume you meant that to also mean 'care... better', which is about as wrong as it gets. Why would anyone instinctively know what's 'best' for a child's development, let alone better than trained profession…

Most of the time I spent with my dad in my earliest days he was parked on a couch with a beer in hand not even looking at me. I consider that time far more valuable than being babysat later on.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#66

Post by __z »

Torgo wrote: post #65
roel_v wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody will care for or about a child more than that child's mother (barring psychological abnormalities in the mother)." Well, technically I guess I can't disagree with you because you said 'care... more', but I assume you meant that to also mean 'care... better', which is about as wrong as it gets. Why would anyone instinctively know what's 'best' for a child's development, let alone better than trained profession…

Most of the time I spent with my dad in my earliest days he was parked on a couch with a beer in hand not even looking at me. I consider that time far more valuable than being babysat later on.

Growing up my father actively hated me and wanted me out of his life even though I did live with him until adulthood. Told me how unwanted I was every single day. Yeah, stand up guy. I had a baby sitter (my father's cousin - she was paid and babysat other kids at her house all day) who loved me more than anyone, including my mother. For me time spent with the baby sitter was more more caring, loving, nurturing, etc., and better in every single way than time spent with either of my parents. I'm sure my baby sitter would have jumped in front of a bus for me.

My sister ran an after school program for mostly disadvantaged kids and I am certain that she cared for and about her children more than some of their parents. Not all, just some.

You see examples of extended family stepping in all the time making sure children are cared for and their needs met when the parents are doing a horrible job.

Unfortunately we do not live in an idealized world like many might believe, otherwise there wouldn't be infanticide, honor killings, child abuse, child neglect, child abandonment, etc., etc.

I'm not sure what my point is other than "some people's experiences are different from yours." (I'm sure you knew that, just chiming in with my story as a counterpoint)

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#67

Post by __z »

meric wrote: post #35
rayiner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caring is a separate issue from having the aptitude and temperament for the labor of child care. I'd do anything for my daughter, but let's face it, she's boring . She's slightly smarter than a puppy, and while it's all magical a couple of hours a day, I can't imagine engaging with her day-in and day-out, any more than I can imagine being a factory worker who just does one movement all day long. I'd go crazy. The day…

While I agree with you I'm not sure that is a good use of "certainly"...It depends how many kids the worker is with and which one is her favourite, as well as the character of the daycare worker. There were plenty of strange* men volunteering to die in frozen waters to save women and children when the titanic went down, for example. * in the stranger sense of the word.

Also Wesley Autrey, the "Subway Hero" who dove onto the tracks of the oncoming 1 train in order to save a stranger who had a seizure and fell onto the tracks. He held the man down in a drainage trench and the subway cars passed over them. That's about as literal as "jumping in front of a bus" as it gets.

Plus all the teachers at Sandy Hook who gave their lives protecting their students.

Those two are just off the top of my head. The willingness to put one's self in danger for others isn't exclusive to parents.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#68

Post by roel_v »

Torgo wrote: post #65
roel_v wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody will care for or about a child more than that child's mother (barring psychological abnormalities in the mother)." Well, technically I guess I can't disagree with you because you said 'care... more', but I assume you meant that to also mean 'care... better', which is about as wrong as it gets. Why would anyone instinctively know what's 'best' for a child's development, let alone better than trained profession…

Most of the time I spent with my dad in my earliest days he was parked on a couch with a beer in hand not even looking at me. I consider that time far more valuable than being babysat later on.

In daycare (a good one), you're not 'babysat'. Educators do activities with children, fun ones and educational ones and preferably both at the same time, children play with other children, etc. Meh, probably a moot discussion at this point, I was just saying - daycare is not 'let's park the children there'.

Re: Evidence of Advantages for Children of Working Mothers

#69

Post by danieltillett »

Jem wrote: post #63
danieltillett wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a crazy situation if a mortgage and all the associated costs is less than renting - here in Australia it is considerably cheaper to rent. I don't think the choice of not using daycare is one that can only be made from a position of massive privilege, but it does involve material sacrifices if you are middle class.

My mortgage is £477 p/m on a small 2 bedroom semi-detached house. To rent I'd be looking at ~£600p/m for a small 2 bedroom flat (apartment). I'd still have to pay the same utilities etc so wouldn't be better off by any stretch of the imagination.

Wow your mortgage is low - mine is more than 10 times the size and I live in a flat! Australian housing is expensive especially where I live.

When I owned a house the maintenance cost was quite considerable. You can put it off for a while, but eventually it comes due. My guess is that it was around $750 a month plus I had council rates to pay on top of this which were another $250 a month.

Post reply on HN