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Join the Engineering Leisure Class

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Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#61

Post by Avshalom »

dionidium wrote: post #56
Avshalom wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But even without owning a car, not having a child, etc. >>I don't get why the world thinks software engineers are so rich... Last year I lived in Austin TX, owned a car, ate healthy, lived 15 minutes from the city center and made 29000 before taxes. Of which I managed to save 15000. The world doesn't think software engineers are so rich, we think anyone above 50K is rich, because for a lot of us thats double what w…

What's happening is that upper-middle class families really do run out of money after saving for college, sending the kids to private school, both driving two new cars, and so on. They think of those things as basics and forget that those basics are unattainable to most.

Right. Hedonistic treadmill/keeping up with the jonses/we rate our lives compared to our peers not compared to objective rock bottom etc... And of course "fucking baffling" was a bit of a rhetorical flourish. Certainly we all understand how they've managed to spend all their money. It's the "and yet they keep spending all their money" that makes us want to grab them by the shirt collars and cartoonishly backhand them.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#62

Post by toomuchtodo »

dilap wrote: post #60
toomuchtodo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not trying to be hard on the author of this piece, but I do think it's important for people to know that engineers in SF even in dual income families struggle with housing and child care payments, not with luxury cars, expensive vacation, lovely luxuries. Choosing to work in a locale where a median home price is a million dollars is a luxury. Engineers could pick from other metro areas, and get fairly close to…

Most of my family is here in SF. Since when is "living near your family" a "luxury"? Fuck that.

How many tech workers live in or move to SFBA because their family lives there?

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#63

Post by sliverstorm »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #23
geebee wrote: post #22

"An engineer earning an amazingly-not-uncommon salary of $100k/year ends up living in an expensive place like San Francisco, starts spending money on some admittedly lovely luxuries, and quickly becomes convinced that her spending is just about right for a comfortable life." Certainly, one way to manage all this is to not live in a place like San Francisco. But I think it is important to make sure people know that lo…

> I'm not trying to be hard on the author of this piece, but I do think it's important for people to know that engineers in SF even in dual income families struggle with housing and child care payments, not with luxury cars, expensive vacation, lovely luxuries. Choosing to work in a locale where a median home price is a million dollars is a luxury. Engineers could pick from other metro areas, and get fairly close to…

Still, it's easier for John Doe to empathize with a family that is struggling to pay for their ordinary-house-in-expensive-neighborhood, than it is for him to empathize with a family that is struggling to pay for their three Jags, butler, and Caribbean cruise.

Although oddly enough both probably cost about the same.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#64

Post by scott_s »

dilap wrote: post #60
toomuchtodo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not trying to be hard on the author of this piece, but I do think it's important for people to know that engineers in SF even in dual income families struggle with housing and child care payments, not with luxury cars, expensive vacation, lovely luxuries. Choosing to work in a locale where a median home price is a million dollars is a luxury. Engineers could pick from other metro areas, and get fairly close to…

Most of my family is here in SF. Since when is "living near your family" a "luxury"? Fuck that.

When it is a choice, and other people do not have that choice because of their ability to pay for it.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#65

Post by Avshalom »

gwern wrote: post #52
rifung wrote: post #16

This is actually exactly what I want to do, although I just started working so for obvious reasons it isn't a reality yet. How long does it take to save up enough money that you wouldn't need to work though? Also, it seems like eventually you'd run out of money unless you can just retire early, in which case, you have the issue of explaining why you've been out of work for so long and proving you still are up to the…

> I want to continue studying piano, but pianos cost money, getting a house costs money, and lessons cost money. Given the difficulty people experience in getting rid of pianos, and the constant flood of pianos, a piano might not cost you much money; you might even be able to get paid to take a nice piano off someone's hands: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos...

Seriously, getting a nice piano might cost money but paying attention to craiglist can easily net you a piano for "free if you can get it out of here"

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#66

Post by clarebear »

neilk wrote: post #8

I did this. I advise against this. I had money saved up, and for visa reasons had to spend a year outside the USA. Seemed like a perfect time to indulge in some risky ideas, especially those which were a little idealistic. It ended up being incredibly depressing and I got very little done. It's hard enough to build a product when you're in a startup or a smart team. In my opinion it's nearly impossible if you're goin…

The author is just asking his friends to do what he is doing to provide the social context he is lacking. He is right that naming it attractively is motivating. But an attractive name is usually not enough to an engineer to make up for not getting to touch the gears of how the world actually works.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#67

Post by scott_s »

geebee wrote: post #22

"An engineer earning an amazingly-not-uncommon salary of $100k/year ends up living in an expensive place like San Francisco, starts spending money on some admittedly lovely luxuries, and quickly becomes convinced that her spending is just about right for a comfortable life." Certainly, one way to manage all this is to not live in a place like San Francisco. But I think it is important to make sure people know that lo…

But here’s the thing: Being able to afford those things is pretty good definition of affluence in modern American society.

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/upshot/letter-from-the-edi...

I'm not saying you are not making a good use of your money - I make similar tradeoffs. But we have the choice. Our income affords us that choice. There are people who do not get to make those tradeoffs, they do not have the choice of living in "OK areas", or paying for childcare.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#68

Post by zrail »

falcolas wrote: post #58
vinceguidry wrote: post #21

> Luckily, there’s a corner of the Internet dedicated to breaking the link between “comfort” and money. The problem with this is that it moves in the wrong direction. You spent all this time learning how to earn more money for your time. Then what do you do after you earn a bunch of money? Figure out how to trade your time for money again, just in different arenas? Why, so you can avoid having to spend more time doin…

Yeah, the MMM manifesto would never work for me - it basically says that I would have to be setting aside over 90% of my income (given my salary range), which wouldn't allow for things like a newer car, owning a house over 300 sq. ft., or traveling to Arizona to visit relatives. Personally, I refuse to give up my life today for the possibility of a life tomorrow. There's too few guarantees that there will be a tomorr…

That's not really what MMM espouses, from what I've been able to tell (I've actually spent the better part of the last month devouring his blog and the forums).

MMM's point is that, if you live well within your means and can save 50% of your income (however you choose to define that, but most people do after-tax), you can "retire" after a short number of years. "Retirement" is very much however you want to define it, but the core is that you don't have to work for money anymore, since your previous investments can take care of your lower-than-average expenses. Lots and lots of people are financially independent (don't have to work for money) and still work a normal job because they like it.

MMM promotes freedom, in the sense that you can change some small aspects of your lifestyle and in a short amount of time free yourself of the requirement to sell your time.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#69

Post by danans »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32
bergie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the places where healthcare isn't free and provided for every citizen

Or in the places where a mostly capitalistic system provides it. I did something similar last year in India and the medical system was not a problem. (I did not by any stretch of the imagination get lucky and manage to avoid injury.)

True, the capitalistic health care system in India is good for software engineers, who probably fall into the class who can afford it, but it's far from available to every citizen.

Also, the high-tech healthcare that we are accustomed to in the US is generally only available to the upper classes in India or people who pay with foreign (>local) purchasing power. Some of the hospitals that provide high-tech care do some symbolic pro-bono care for the poor, financed in part by donations from Indians abroad and foreign medical tourists. (Source: my parents have donated to such hospitals, and I have some acquaintances who have gone to India to have cheaper-than-US specialty medical procedures performed).

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#70

Post by [deleted] »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #23
geebee wrote: post #22

"An engineer earning an amazingly-not-uncommon salary of $100k/year ends up living in an expensive place like San Francisco, starts spending money on some admittedly lovely luxuries, and quickly becomes convinced that her spending is just about right for a comfortable life." Certainly, one way to manage all this is to not live in a place like San Francisco. But I think it is important to make sure people know that lo…

> I'm not trying to be hard on the author of this piece, but I do think it's important for people to know that engineers in SF even in dual income families struggle with housing and child care payments, not with luxury cars, expensive vacation, lovely luxuries. Choosing to work in a locale where a median home price is a million dollars is a luxury. Engineers could pick from other metro areas, and get fairly close to…

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