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U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

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Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#61
post #3

Pre-Snowden, I wonder if the ruling would have been different. Back then the judges would only know what was presented to them. The government would have obviously presented in a way that was most favorable to them, and their opposition would not have access to crucial evidence. Now that the cat shit is out of the bag, judges and everyone else have more background to evaluate what's in front of them. The government w…

This case would have been impossible without Snowden.

Previous attempts to litigate the legality of mass collection of data had failed based on problems with the "standing" of plaintiffs. Specifically, the people who sued could only say that it was implicit that the government had collected data on them, but they had no actual evidence that it had happened -- specifically, to them.

That specificity is necessary to have standing in cases against the government, as a longstanding principle that you can't just use the courts to claim the government is violating the constitution or doing something wrong in a general way, you have to present courts with a specific controversy and specific facts that yielded specific damages and have specific redress.

That specificity was provided by Snowden when he turned over copies of the actual subpoena/requests to Verizon by the NSA. The ACLU was then able to say, we are actual customers of Verizon on the dates in question, and this order is asking for actual information on us, specifically.

Without Snowden this issue would never have reached this point and this decision -- which indeed has ruled illegal the NSA's mass metadata collection of telephony records -- would have never happened.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#62
post #9

I'm sure the NSA is laughing at the judge and his decision. "How many divisions does he have? Bwa-ha-ha-ha." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

NSA employees go home at night. They are subject to arrest when they do, if the courts need to go that far.

Technically, it's possible. Practically, I think it's extremely unlikely that a law enforcement officers will request, and that a judge will approve warrants to arrest individual members of the security services, and that those members won't just mysteriously get out of jail a few hours later, and that a politician won't figure out a way to BandAid the inconvenience within weeks.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#63

Here's the actual decision: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf Concurrence by Judge Sack: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/clap... Here's what struck me as the most interesting comment from Sack - "Considering the issue of advocacy in the context of deliberations involving alleged state secrets, and, more broadly, the ʺleakʺ by Edward Snowden that led to this litigation, calls…

Love the analysis of standing. The government said the ACLU did not have standing to sue because they could not demonstrate that their phone records, though collected, had been examined. The catch-22--that they never really would be able to because that's classified--was avoided by quoting the 4th Amendment: "The Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches and seizures " (italics in the original.)

I noticed that as well. The plaintiffs hadn't stressed that issue, it seems to have been brought up newly by the appellate judges themselves. It's an interesting and important distinction, they essentially said that by transferring the information to a government computer the government has conducted a "seizure".

That is excellent news for those of us that are opposed to these kinds of government databases. Though the supremes will have to agree before that becomes doctrine.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#64
post #29

Now it would be the right time to ask for a presidential pardon for Edward Snowden. Now that candidates are gearing up their campaign platforms, it would be a great vote winner both on the left and on the (libertarian) right. If you live in a "defining primary" state, please go and ask the candidates as soon as they show up.

We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think quietly "being nice" to him is fine but a public pardon, a welcome hope party, adoring media coverage may inspire some idiot to be the next Snowden and we probably do not want that.

You don't want your government's crimes to be exposed?

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#65
post #13

The actual judgment: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf From the ruling: > Because we find that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants’ constitutional arguments. It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights abused on "state secrets" ground…

> It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights ...

The text you quoted said dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants' constitutional arguments.

> organizations like the ACLU and the EFF need funding

Serious question: Do the ACLU and EFF profile their donors by collecting information from and reporting it to third parties? It's my understanding that the practice is widespread in the fund-raising business, and I read many years ago that the ACLU participated.

EDIT: I want to clarify, because some people are responding regarding web trackers. Those are a concern, but I'm talking about something else: Obtaining, from third-party data aggregators, profiles of donors: How much they make, their mortgage, what they read -- all the data that's collected about private citizens -- and using it to target their fundraising.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think quietly "being nice" to him is fine but a public pardon, a welcome hope party, adoring media coverage may inspire some idiot to be the next Snowden and we probably do not want that.

Unlike the arguable Manning, Snowden had a deliberate, slow, controlled release of information. No informants were exposed; et cetera. What is wrong with responsible whistleblowing of unlawful activity? I think it should be encouraged!

While it has certainly turned out that way, considering the process of dissemination, both Snowden and Manning dumped a pile of documents on a third party. It's that third party that, in the case of Manning's files (WikiLeaks), was hasty and cavalier in its release of information, whereas Greenwald/Poitras/Etc. have been more careful and deliberate in their releases.

To the extent that the individual leakers could have some sort of culpability, it would be for the people with whom they chose to share their information, though I grant that the who is not independent of the how.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#67
post #13

The actual judgment: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf From the ruling: > Because we find that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants’ constitutional arguments. It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights abused on "state secrets" ground…

> It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights ... The text you quoted said dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants' constitutional arguments . > organizations like the ACLU and the EFF need funding Serious question: Do the ACLU and EFF profile their donors by collecting information from and reporting it to third parties? It's my understanding tha…

EFF uses extensive technical and policy measures to protect member privacy. They also require the similar measures when they partner with other orgs on campaigns.

https://www.eff.org/policy

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#68
post #29

Now it would be the right time to ask for a presidential pardon for Edward Snowden. Now that candidates are gearing up their campaign platforms, it would be a great vote winner both on the left and on the (libertarian) right. If you live in a "defining primary" state, please go and ask the candidates as soon as they show up.

Why would it be a good time to ask for a pardon? The only thing the current administration loves more than jailing whistleblowers is drone-striking civilians. Why ask when the answer is obviously going to be 'Fuck No?'

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#69
post #13

The actual judgment: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf From the ruling: > Because we find that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants’ constitutional arguments. It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights abused on "state secrets" ground…

> It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights ... The text you quoted said dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants' constitutional arguments . > organizations like the ACLU and the EFF need funding Serious question: Do the ACLU and EFF profile their donors by collecting information from and reporting it to third parties? It's my understanding tha…

Metadata collection is only bad when it's the Government doing it!

FWIW: I've not received anything but EFF-related spam from EFF to the email address I used to donate to them back in the day.

Not sure about ACLU.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be a double downer, I don't see the current president signing anything that would limit executive power so it would take 2/3rds of both houses to override a veto.

That one's easy to get around. Congress does budgets. If Congress has backbone (but not 2/3 majority backbone), they can pass a budget that de-funds NSA to whatever degree desired. The president can veto it. But then there's no budget, so there's still no money for the NSA...

The easy part is that would take only 1/2 of one chamber. the hard part is forcing a government shutdown is risky business, and maintaining the resolve of the caucus becomes more difficult the longer one drags on.
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