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6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

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Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#61

Post by nickbauman »

kaa2102 wrote: post #38
Kenji wrote: post #6

I don't think the other people are at fault here. I think it's reasonable to assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black, just like it's reasonable to assume that a random IT professor is male based on the fact that 90%* actually are. As long as you owe up to your error when you notice it (and e.g. apologize). It's a reasonable optimization that works out more often than not. The problem only start…

It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record. Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 N…

Using a name that is statistically far more likely to be a black male is what is "working out". I think we can agree that inferring someone's race and gender from their name is not the same as being racist or gender biased.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#62

Post by nashequilibrium »

hyperpape wrote: post #45
nashequilibrium wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what amazes me about white America: 1: 14% of the population is black, 2: 90% of white America have never spoken to a black person let alone have a black friend. 3: So where do their stereotypes come from, rap?, news?, (with regards to height) NBA? 4: They don't like to talk about this and this will be flagged off HN. It amazes me with so little to no interaction with a group, white America can infer a black…

So, your overall question is a good one, but #2 is a howler. The reported statistic I've seen is that 40% of Americans say they don't have a close friend of a different race. But I'm confident that 99% of white Americans have spoken to a black person. Except for a few states like Vermont, most states and most cities have significant black populations. See, for instance: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-di…

"The reported statistic I've seen is that 40% of Americans say they don't have a close friend of a different race."

Firstly that says of another race, could be arab,persian, Italian, asian, etc... Secondly, no way in hell 60% of america can have a friend from a pool of 14% of America. This is impossible looking at how race groups tend to cluster.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#63

Post by krapp »

calibraxis wrote: post #12
Kenji wrote: post #6

I don't think the other people are at fault here. I think it's reasonable to assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black, just like it's reasonable to assume that a random IT professor is male based on the fact that 90%* actually are. As long as you owe up to your error when you notice it (and e.g. apologize). It's a reasonable optimization that works out more often than not. The problem only start…

Our bureaucratic preoccupation with racial and gender categories is much like those who segmented bloodlines into Untouchables, or royalty. (As if it was ever impressive to be related to some glorified dictator called a "king".) Consider that, depending on your racial category, it may be ok for the US state to choke you to death in public. Even just to speak normal English, you have to basically surveil into people's…

>it may be ok for the US state to choke you to death in public.

For a certain value of 'ok' that accepts that most Americans find such behavior repellant, and that it's not actually legal (much less mandated by the state) for cops to murder people for being of the 'wrong race' (despite it being, apparently, easy for them to get away with.)

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#64

Post by [deleted] »

fixxer wrote: post #39
anthonymartinez wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would push back on that view and say other people are absolutely at fault here. if thats not something we can't or won't own up to as a society, then we will have to continue to live with the consequences of stereotyping which, good and bad, harm us all in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. difficult, but necessary.

Are generalizations really not allowed? Do we have to handicap our brains? I actually worked for the progressives and saw campaign analytics first-hand. It was one of the most racist things I've seen. And it works.

[deleted]

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#65

Post by foldr »

beachstartup wrote: post #42
jrells wrote: post #10

As a white guy with a (very mildly) African American sounding name, I have had similar experiences. When I meet people in person after emailing them they sometimes seem surprised, and some later admit they expected me to be black. The worst example was when I was told by someone renting a room on craigslist that they couldn't rent to me because I was a "security threat", even though I had hardly said anything about m…

of course they can escape it. they just have to change their name. that's what my family did for me, and what i will do for my kids if i have kids. as far as i'm concerned if you have serious professional ambitions in the US, you're being foolish if you keep an 'ethnic' sounding name. keeping your disadvantageous name and arrogantly shaking your fist at the world to change to suit your political tastes is insane to m…

I think the point is that the name is disadvantageous because it makes people think that he's black, and black people cannot stop being black. In other words, if you're actually black, then you can't escape racism just by changing your name.

I'm not sure what you mean by "political tastes". I'd have thought pretty much everyone was opposed to e.g. refusing to rent an apartment to someone because of their name, or because you think that they're black.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#66

Post by simonjw »

kaa2102 wrote: post #38
Kenji wrote: post #6

I don't think the other people are at fault here. I think it's reasonable to assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black, just like it's reasonable to assume that a random IT professor is male based on the fact that 90%* actually are. As long as you owe up to your error when you notice it (and e.g. apologize). It's a reasonable optimization that works out more often than not. The problem only start…

It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record. Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 N…

The second half of the parent comment states the problem is if you treat people differently based on those assumptions. Guessing that someone called Jamaal is probably black is like guessing that someone called Sue is probably female.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#67

Post by nickbauman »

the8472 wrote: post #57
kaa2102 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women. Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record. Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 N…

You are conflating the observation that a person who has a name predominantly used by african-americans is most likely african-american with further, discriminating, acts based on that observation.

Much more succinct than how I said it.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#68

Post by hyperpape »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #56
alex8022 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? I'm asking because I find it hard to believe (almost impossible) that 90% of white people have never spoken to a black person.

How many white people do you know that have spoken to a black person, not the lady at Mcdonalds but an actual interaction?

Every single person I worked with in Rocky Mount had spoken with Black people and worked with Black people. They lived on the same streets and their kids went to the same schools. And many of those white people who interacted with Black people every day were stunningly racist (and I should say many weren't). Maybe they categorized "different types" of black people. But they could hold a civil conversation, then turn around and stereotype, or drop the n-word repeatedly.

Your vision of what people have been exposed to is a cartoon.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#69

Post by dragonwriter »

hyperpape wrote: post #45
nashequilibrium wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what amazes me about white America: 1: 14% of the population is black, 2: 90% of white America have never spoken to a black person let alone have a black friend. 3: So where do their stereotypes come from, rap?, news?, (with regards to height) NBA? 4: They don't like to talk about this and this will be flagged off HN. It amazes me with so little to no interaction with a group, white America can infer a black…

So, your overall question is a good one, but #2 is a howler. The reported statistic I've seen is that 40% of Americans say they don't have a close friend of a different race. But I'm confident that 99% of white Americans have spoken to a black person. Except for a few states like Vermont, most states and most cities have significant black populations. See, for instance: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-di…

> But I'm confident that 99% of white Americans have spoken to a black person.

I'm no more confident of that than in the 90% haven't made up statistic that this was offered in response to.

The truth is probably somewhere in between (and may be closer to the 90% haven't side, especially if, as suggested in another comment, one excludes the minimal interactions around things like retail commercial transactions and the like, and only includes substantive conversations.)

> Except for a few states like Vermont, most states and most cities have significant black populations.

That doesn't mean that the black population interacts with the White population all that much.

Re: 6 Words: 'My Name Is Jamaal I'm White'

#70

Post by fixxer »

[deleted] wrote: post #64
fixxer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are generalizations really not allowed? Do we have to handicap our brains? I actually worked for the progressives and saw campaign analytics first-hand. It was one of the most racist things I've seen. And it works.

[deleted]

Well, ideally you can observe behavior for a large group of people and tie that back to observable characteristics (i.e. "black", "poor", "urban"). Then you can project characteristics from a new population onto unobservable behaviors (i.e. support a candidate).

Pretty simple. Pretty effective.

EDIT: I've actually seen "race-from-name" models. Jamaal would totally be black. Despite a lone white Jamaal, I'd still use that model.

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