Live data from Hacker News

Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

bbc.com

61–68 of 68 posts

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#61
post #47

"most animals don't"? What do they mean? Dogs definitely do have a kind of "bleeding" as (hopefully) any dog owner knows. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060612224917A... It's however not "the same" as the one in primates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 "Some species, such as domestic dogs, experience small amounts of vaginal bleeding while in heat; this discharge has a differen…

So you agree that most animals don't menstruate... what's wrong with the article's title?

EDIT: Oh, I think I get it now. "Period" in this context does not refer to the general fertility cycle. It is specifically a euphemism for menstruation. That is why you'll hear people saying things like "I'm on my period", "my period started late/early", etc. These phrases would not make sense if it referred to the fertility cycle in general, since from puberty to menopause, most healthy women are in some phase of a fertility cycle.

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#62
post #47

"most animals don't"? What do they mean? Dogs definitely do have a kind of "bleeding" as (hopefully) any dog owner knows. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060612224917A... It's however not "the same" as the one in primates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 "Some species, such as domestic dogs, experience small amounts of vaginal bleeding while in heat; this discharge has a differen…

So you agree that most animals don't menstruate... what's wrong with the article's title? EDIT: Oh, I think I get it now. "Period" in this context does not refer to the general fertility cycle. It is specifically a euphemism for menstruation. That is why you'll hear people saying things like "I'm on my period", "my period started late/early", etc. These phrases would not make sense if it referred to the fertility cyc…

Yes, and even if the topic is just bleeding, humans aren't special, so it still shouldn't be "why do women bleed" but "why just primates, bats and one kind of shrew bleed during estrous cycle." Humans simply aren't special in that regard. And the whole "mystery" doesn't appear so dramatic anymore. It becomes obvious that that "optimization" developed more than once.

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#63
post #4
post #2

> It seems the list of animals that menstruate is quite short: humans, apes, monkeys, bats and elephant shrews. What do these seemingly disparate animals have in common? My unfixed female dogs have periods. So either the article is poorly written, or they are ignoring animals that don't fit the theory.

Dogs don't have periods; they have estrous, commonly called "heat". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle - note specifically #Differences_from_the_menstrual_cycle

Dogs bleed. It might not be a 'period', but the article is talking about why some animals bleed and most don't.

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#64
post #63
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs don't have periods; they have estrous, commonly called "heat". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle - note specifically #Differences_from_the_menstrual_cycle

Dogs bleed. It might not be a 'period', but the article is talking about why some animals bleed and most don't.

Well, if you're going to attempt to be pedantic about it, the word "bleeding" isn't exactly correct to begin with. The discharge is endometrial tissue, not blood.

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#65
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs bleed. It might not be a 'period', but the article is talking about why some animals bleed and most don't.

Well, if you're going to attempt to be pedantic about it, the word "bleeding" isn't exactly correct to begin with. The discharge is endometrial tissue, not blood.

Before calling names, let's look at the article in detail.

"Of course, I wasn't the only one: most women menstruate. But most other female animals don't bleed outwardly like us. Even among those that give birth to live young as we do, only a handful of species menstruate."

So the term menstruate is used to mean to "bleed outwardly like us".

"If the woman doesn't get pregnant, progesterone levels begin to fall. The thick endometrial tissue with its blood vessels then begins to slough off, and passes out through the vagina. This bleeding is menstruation."

So they are expanding on the term menstruate. Now it's both "bleed outwardly like us" and "The thick endometrial tissue with its blood vessels then begins to slough off, and passes out through the vagina"

"On average, women lose 30 to 90 ml of fluid over 3-7 days of menstruation. We know, because scientists have given women pre-weighed pads and tampons, and weighed them again after use."

Clarifying the term menstruate and showing how to measure it. I'm going to paraphrase the definition of the term. So at this point, when they talk about menstruation, they are talking about a blood like fluid, that can be measured, and that happens when the the tissue and blood vessels pass out of the vagina.

The article has a break to talk about the history, theories, and research that has happened over the years. After that they get to the main point. "To figure out the truth, we need to compare animals that do and don't menstruate."

"Great apes do it too. Menstrual bleeding is easily detectable in chimpanzees and gibbons. However, gorillas and orang-utans bleed less copiously, so menstruation is only visible on closer inspection. Other primates, such as tarsiers, may also menstruate, but there is little hard evidence."

They re-iterate key parts of the term. When this article talks about menstruation, they are specifically talking about detectable bleeding.

Now we can get to the heart of my objection. They spent most of the article defining their usage of the term menstruation, and how it relates to the research.

The article claims "It seems the list of animals that menstruate is quite short: humans, apes, monkeys, bats and elephant shrews. What do these seemingly disparate animals have in common?", remember the definition they use for menstruate, blood and tissue passing though the vagina.

If you've ever owned an unfix female dog during heat, you'll be quite aware that they do, in fact bleed out their vagina for a period of time during their reproductive cycle. This fits with their definition.

The only mention of dogs is: "In dogs and cats, the foetuses dig in a little more. But in humans and other primates, a foetus will dig through all the womb lining to directly bathe in its mother's blood." This does not specify why dogs do not fit into their term. In fact this seems to support that dogs have a very similar cycle to humans.

So my question remains, Why are dogs excluded? They never acknowledge the contradiction. So either the article incorrectly sets up the terms, or they don't want to talk about dogs because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#66
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is there no moderation with regards to topical content on HN? As per the posted policy when I joined HN, this would have been topical. (It has changed since.) "Anything that would be interesting to hackers." I don't mind at all if the occasional pop-sci article comes by, so long as they don't all do so unfiltered. Ironically, this comment and the one it replies to are distinctly against the moderation policy, as…

> It has changed since. How? I don't recall any change. Or are you referring to Startup News, the predecessor of HN?

Once upon a time, we weren't supposed to downvote to disagree. Then there was a capitulation, IIRC, and that became kosher. Now, I think things may be back to where we started. I don't keep miniscule track of changes to the moderation policy. (Maybe I should?)

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#67
post #65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you're going to attempt to be pedantic about it, the word "bleeding" isn't exactly correct to begin with. The discharge is endometrial tissue, not blood.

Before calling names, let's look at the article in detail. "Of course, I wasn't the only one: most women menstruate. But most other female animals don't bleed outwardly like us. Even among those that give birth to live young as we do, only a handful of species menstruate." So the term menstruate is used to mean to "bleed outwardly like us". "If the woman doesn't get pregnant, progesterone levels begin to fall. The th…

Look, your quibble isn't with me; it's with the biologists and the terms they've chosen to use for the different (and they are different) physiological phenomena. I'm using their terms here, in the ways they've defined them.

If you're utterly convinced that estrous and menstruation are the same, on the basis of some blood-like discharge occurring in both, then you might want to explore a career in academia. I'm sure there's a journal somewhere that would take your well-reasoned and compelling thesis on the subject. (You might need to pay them for the privilege, but as assiduously as you're defending your position here, that doesn't seem too unreasonable.)

Re: Why do women have periods when most animals don't?

#68
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before calling names, let's look at the article in detail. "Of course, I wasn't the only one: most women menstruate. But most other female animals don't bleed outwardly like us. Even among those that give birth to live young as we do, only a handful of species menstruate." So the term menstruate is used to mean to "bleed outwardly like us". "If the woman doesn't get pregnant, progesterone levels begin to fall. The th…

Look, your quibble isn't with me; it's with the biologists and the terms they've chosen to use for the different (and they are different) physiological phenomena. I'm using their terms here, in the ways they've defined them. If you're utterly convinced that estrous and menstruation are the same, on the basis of some blood-like discharge occurring in both, then you might want to explore a career in academia. I'm sure…

> If you're utterly convinced that estrous and menstruation are the same

You've completely missed my point.

Post reply on HN