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Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

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Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#61

Post by rayiner »

higherpurpose wrote: post #47
zmanian wrote: post #19

One thing I'm confident in is that the further Rand Paul makes in the election process, the more discussion and awareness of mass surveillance's threat to democracy itself.

I remember when Ron Paul ran in the primaries, and in one of the first debates from 2011 I believe, they asked the Republican candidates whether they support a stronger Patriot Act or not. Like all the other 4 or 5 other candidates tried to out-match each other in how much stronger they would like the Patriot Act and other such laws to be. Ron Paul? He was the only one who said he would do away with it. Full stop. If…

> I believe, they asked the Republican candidates whether they support a stronger Patriot Act or not. Like all the other 4 or 5 other candidates tried to out-match each other in how much stronger they would like the Patriot Act and other such laws to be.

It's worth thinking about the significance of that. These guys aren't doing it because it's wildly unpopular with voters.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#62

Post by higherpurpose »

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #42

All presidential candidates make similar promises when they run, and then, when they get elected, they get exposed to the true reasons why most of these programs exist and they realize the reality is not as simple as it seemed from outside. And then, they perpetuate the status quo. Besides, I just can't stand libertarians who contradict their own positions saying that they want the government out of their lives excep…

On this issue I think Rand Paul has been quite consistent. He was among only a handful of Senators against the FISA Amendments Act renewal from 2012, when he proposed a "4th amendment act" that would require a warrant for all data requests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIyLlXBcbjo

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/12/why-we-should-all-care...

He's been against the Patriot Act as well:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/rand-pau...

He filibustered John Brennan's CIA nomination and the idea that the US government can assassinate an American with drones:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/rand-paul-filibuster-j...

And he supports abolishing the TSA:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2012/0504/Sen....

This guy has been preaching this stuff for years and voted like that as well.

Obama on the other hand came out of nowhere, told us nice things we wanted to hear and then did a 180 when he became president. Oh, and just before he won his first mandate he voted for the Patriot Act's renewal while still in Senate - all while he was promoting an "end to illegal mass surveillance" in his campaign.

I'm just saying, at least on this issue, he might be a little different than Obama. I would've still preferred his dad much more...but I'm not really seeing anyone fighting for this major issue. It's not a "privacy" issue...it's a liberty issue - I think that stuff used to be pretty important for Americans, no? I'm not seeing Elizabeth Warren, not seeing Bernie Sanders, nor Hillary Clinton pushing against the surveillance state from the Democratic side.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#63

Post by lubos »

morgante wrote: post #54
lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian.

Well, there is also something called "Christian libertarianism".

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#64

Post by natmaster »

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

Please leave your anti-science anti-intellectual comments outside of hacker news.

"FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years" - baseless argument. comparing fiat money to fiat money says nothing about efficacy of fiat money.

"Too bad when California deregulated their energy market..." - http://www.tylervigen.com/ Furthermore, where does this money appear from? If the government makes energy cheaper by paying for it by taxing you more, you are just lying to yourself.

"anti-abortion" - please explain why third-trimester abortions should be allowed. the baby can live by being born at that point, and the mother has had plenty of time to deal with the issue. but sure, you can disagree with that, and I won't debate it here.

"anti same-sex marriage" - "I think the way to fix DOMA is maybe to try to make all of our laws more neutral towards the issue [of same sex marriage], and I don't want the government promoting something I don't believe in.", Rand Paul

"vaccination" - http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-ran...

So hey, maybe you disagree with some of his positions after you found out what they actually are. Is that enough to say, you shouldn't care at all about privacy, the military industrial complex, foreign entanglements that make us less safe, more drones strikes on civilians, and a corrupt, racist criminal justice system? I recommend becoming informed and making a rational decision about such things instead of lying to yourself.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#65

Post by researcher88 »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #48
lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

He's a traditional U.S. states' rights conservative, an ideal intersecting with classical liberalism - less common these days due to the widespread influence of neoconservatism. He doesn't really touch on deeper libertarian or even minarchist philosophy at all. His stringent views on border security are also unusual for it (unless you're Hans-Hermann Hoppe). His platform ultimately rests on anti-federalism.

Don't you mean federalism? A lot of people seem to use it to signify states rights and a balance of power. Such as the historian podcaster Dan Carlin.

Edit- I can't reply below but you are using the term incorrectly and in the context of Anti-Federalists from the 18th century. From Wikipedia on federalism:

> In contrast, Europe has a greater history of unitary states than North America, thus European "federalism" argues for a weaker central government, relative to a unitary state. The modern American usage of the word is much closer to the European sense.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#66

Post by lettergram »

morgante wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, two things.. (1) It seems you are just dismissing him and his father have similar ideas, which aren't necessarily any crazier than every other politician ever (i.e. social security is so awesome). Rand and Ron Paul both supported STATES rights, which lets be honest, makes it possible to move between states and have different taxes, laws, and unique experiences. This leads me to my second point... (2) "His re…

> Constitutionally, the president doesn't control a state religion, abortion, marriage, etc. The Establishment Clause is pretty clear that states should not and cannot enact state religions, and its up to the federal government to enforce that. The fact that Rand Paul is clearly biased by his religion makes him distinctly un-libertarian.

I think pretty much everyone (including Paul) would agree that the federal government needs to keep a state religion from forming in a state.

Laws related to abolition, marriage, etc. is not necessarily religious, so claiming the states should make their own decisions seems fair.

Also, he's a Republican (for better or worse), he'll almost certainly get a large portion of Libertarian vote though (which accounts for 2 - 5% of the population per state).

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#67

Post by pdonis »

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

> FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years.

If you mean "most stable" in the sense that all the others fared even worse, I guess I can't argue with that. But I'm not sure the word "stable" is the best one to describe the USD since the Fed was created. A "stable" currency would not, I think, have inflated by a factor of about 30 (especially since, before the Fed was created, the USD's value was relatively constant, on average, over time).

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#68

Post by pnut »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #7
MichaelCrawford wrote: post #4

I understand that Rand Paul is heavily into the "rights" of corporations. Is that actually true? I personally am rather more worried about corporate surveillance than NSA surveillance. That's why I pay cash for everything, and take pains to blackhole web analytics servers with my hosts file.

Presumably Rand Paul, like many Republicans (and no small number of Democrats), accepts the idea that people can exercise their rights through government-registered entities which they own, called "corporations". These are entities without intrinsic rights, but a well-known intellectual framework called "corporate personhood" which dates back to some of our earliest jurisprudence in this nation says that you treat th…

While not debating the facts of your statement, I would contend that the only legitimate exercise of an owner's rights in the context of a corporation are to seek profit through commerce. Political speech, religious beliefs, and other "personhood" concepts are already granted to corporate owners as individuals.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#69

Post by natmaster »

morgante wrote: post #54
lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian.

While Rand Paul is not a libertarian (this is a concept promoted by the media to make him seem radical), your understanding of abortion issues is quite off. The real debate about abortion is over when life that deserves protecting begins. There is nothing else anyone disagrees with. If the fetus was an animal PETA would be the only ones having issue; if the fetus was dead noone would have issue with removing it. Some people believe that because a baby is not yet outside its mother, it has no rights. Other believe that until a baby is named, it has no rights. That is what the issue is about, and thinking otherwise you might as well not engage because you will go in circles all day.

As far as same-sex marriage, Rand Paul thinks it is not the federal government's responsibility to regulate that. Removing regulation over social issues from government IS a very libertarian philosophy.

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