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Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

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Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#61
post #45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verizon responded to that post. http://publicpolicy.verizon.com/blog/entry/level-3s-selectiv...

It's a pretty poor response. They're using the fact that Level3 had a dispute with Cogent over unbalanced traffic to say the traffic between Level3 and Verizon should also be balanced. Verizon is not in that condition, it's not a transit provider. Basically there are 4 different situations: 1) ContentProvider Level3 Cogent ISP User 2) ContentProvider Cogent Level3 ISP User 3) ContentProvider Level3->ISP User 4) Conte…

>Verizon is not in that condition, it's not a transit provider.

Are you sure?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#List_of_tier_1...

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#62
I'm having significant difficulties with this paragraph:

"Comcast claims that Netflix was sending traffic at such high volumes as to intentionally congest the links between different transit ISPs and Comcast, essentially taking a page from Norton’s “peering playbook” and forcing Comcast and its peers (i.e., the transit providers, Cogent, Level 3, Tata, and others) to upgrade capacity one-by-one, before sending traffic down a different path, congesting that, and forcing an upgrade. Their position was that Netflix was sending more traffic through these transit providers than the transit providers could handle, and thus that Netflix or their transit providers should pay to connect to Comcast directly. Comcast also implies that certain transit providers such as Cogent are likely the source of congested paths, a claim that has been explored but not yet conclusively proved one way or the other, owing to the difficulty of locating these points of congestion (more on that in a future post)."

Now, peering negotiations are an ugly, unpleasant activity that I'm quite happy never to have been a part of. But I don't find this particular claim to be "reasonable and plausible", in the author's words. Where is the congestion?

* Inside Netflix? Nope.

* Between Netflix and their transit providers? Seems unlikely; Netflix is paying them, after all. Such congestion would effect many of Netflix's customers and be against Netflix's interests.

* In the transit providers? Possibly, but again, Netflix is paying them. Further, Netflix connecting directly to Comcast is the first thing Netflix would do, if the transit providers were trying to squeeze more money out of them.

* Between the transit providers and Comcast? That seems to me to be the most likely interpretation of that paragraph. But if Netflix is doing this intentionally; say, by directing 90% of their traffic to Comcast customers through Tata, those customers are most likely to be unhappy with Netflix, not Comcast---any traffic from a customer out that doesn't go through Tata is fine, so they wouldn't likely perceive any problems with anything but Netflix. Further, that seems to contradict the statement that "[customers] routinely experienced high latency to many Internet destinations every evening during 'prime time'". And if the congestion is not hitting one specific transit provider, then the idea that it is intentional on Netflix's part is silly and Comcast's peering relationships are simply inadequate for the traffic its customers are using.

* Inside Comcast? Well, I could see almost anyone wanting to have an unrelated third-party pay for their infrastructure upgrades, but....

Then, there's this: "The best technical solution (and what ultimately happened) is that Netflix and Comcast should interconnect directly." The best technical solution? The best technical solution? (Here's a hint: a fully-connected network is not a good technical solution.)

But the ultimate problem here is: "This is where market leverage comes into play: Because most consumers do not have choice in broadband Internet providers, Comcast arguably (and, empirically speaking, as well) has more market leverage: They can afford to ask Netflix to pay for that direct link—a common Internet business relationship called paid peering—because they have more market power."

Comcast has more market power because it is a monopoly and the problem with monopolies is precisely that they use their market power to squeeze money out of counter-parties.

As an aside, I find Feamster's comment reply, "What is false in Oliver’s presentation (and many of the claims in the popular press) is his claim about what causes* that slowdown. The cause of the slowdown is congestion, not intentional throttling,*" to be simply disingenuous. What exactly is the difference between intentional throttling and intentionally introducing congestion by not upgrading inadequate peering relationships?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it ok for Netflix to pay a transit company, but not Comcast? Because transit providers are actually providing a service to Netflix. They allow them to dump all the traffic in one location and then the transit provider will build out a network to take care of moving the traffic to anywhere in the globe where there's an ISP requesting it. The transit provider will then not pay the ISP to take the traffic and d…

> The transit provider will then not pay the ISP to take the traffic and deliver it to their requesting user. The "not pay" part is, I assume, based on the prevalent use of settlement-free peering in the industry. These agreements were based on a understanding that, over time, the traffic would wash out even between the two, so let's just not keep track and call it even from the start. This is not necessarily a given…

>These agreements were based on a understanding that, over time, the traffic would wash out even between the two, so let's just not keep track and call it even from the start.

I don't think that's the case. Transit providers will always tend to deliver more traffic to the ISP than the ISP delivers to them, because users download more than they upload. That's still fine because the transit provider's network is paid for by the content provider and the ISPs network is paid for by the user so the settlement free peering always makes sense. Without it the ISP wouldn't have content so no users and the transit provider wouldn't be able to deliver traffic so would have no clients. The fact that Netflix is now a significant single content provider in the transit network doesn't change this dynamic at all, it just makes it easier for ISPs to squeeze them for money. Compensation for unbalanced peering only makes sense between transit providers since for each connection only one of them is being compensated (the one whose client sent the traffic) so the other one will only accept that peering if it is balanced.

I've explained this more clearly elsewhere in the thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9264734

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If Netflix was split into 1000 smaller VOD services streaming the same traffic volume who would Comcast blame for having to shoulder the same burden? In that case many of those would be Comcast customers, and peering would end up equal. Netflix has a problem because it's an outlier. I'd like to see the chart without Netflix and see if comcast still receives more than it sends then.

> In that case many of those would be Comcast customers, and peering would end up equal. NOT HARDLY! They would mostly be customers of small datacenters in various places all around the country, and thus, customers of Cogent and Level3. Datacenters generally go for tier1 bandwidth, not consumer ISP bandwidth. Look at the plans that they offer on their website. The fastest upload I can find is 20Mbps for $200/mo. http…

Let me ask you something else. How large should a company need to be to get free connections to last mile ISPs? If any company could do it, then instead of paying for hosting or internet, I'd just pay for one computer and hook it up directly to the ISP. That isn't possible for every website.

Why should Netflix be able to do that and not smaller sites?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#65
post #61
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pretty poor response. They're using the fact that Level3 had a dispute with Cogent over unbalanced traffic to say the traffic between Level3 and Verizon should also be balanced. Verizon is not in that condition, it's not a transit provider. Basically there are 4 different situations: 1) ContentProvider Level3 Cogent ISP User 2) ContentProvider Cogent Level3 ISP User 3) ContentProvider Level3->ISP User 4) Conte…

>Verizon is not in that condition, it's not a transit provider. Are you sure? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#List_of_tier_1...

They are huge companies so they can probably also provide transit service but that's not the case in this dispute. Netflix is willing to deliver the content anywhere Verizon/Comcast/etc require it either directly or by hiring a transit provider. So Netflix doesn't want transit service from these ISPs, it's already paying or building that by itself. The user is also already paying for the ISP network to work, so all segments of the network are already properly paid for once, no need to pay again.

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In that case many of those would be Comcast customers, and peering would end up equal. NOT HARDLY! They would mostly be customers of small datacenters in various places all around the country, and thus, customers of Cogent and Level3. Datacenters generally go for tier1 bandwidth, not consumer ISP bandwidth. Look at the plans that they offer on their website. The fastest upload I can find is 20Mbps for $200/mo. http…

Let me ask you something else. How large should a company need to be to get free connections to last mile ISPs? If any company could do it, then instead of paying for hosting or internet, I'd just pay for one computer and hook it up directly to the ISP. That isn't possible for every website. Why should Netflix be able to do that and not smaller sites?

While we're asking each other silly questions, let me ask you this: if my ISP says that they're providing me with "internet access" but actually only provides me with "most of the internet minus a few people we'd like to shake-down access", this is OK?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#67
post #65
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Verizon is not in that condition, it's not a transit provider. Are you sure? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#List_of_tier_1...

They are huge companies so they can probably also provide transit service but that's not the case in this dispute. Netflix is willing to deliver the content anywhere Verizon/Comcast/etc require it either directly or by hiring a transit provider. So Netflix doesn't want transit service from these ISPs, it's already paying or building that by itself. The user is also already paying for the ISP network to work, so all s…

Should anyone be able to connect to an ISP for free? Why can't I host my website for free, just paying an upfront cost for a server, and get it hosted in an ISP's facility?

Is there a relevant difference between that and what Netflix wanted?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#68
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Netflix is sending a lot more than it's receiving, in which case their ISP needs to pay for peering. All Internet traffic has more download than upload (for the end-consumer). This is literally why ISPs offer faster download speeds in end-consumer packages than upload speeds - they know that consumers will need to download more than they upload. In vector calculus, this is known as divergence . Traffic on the highw…

>All Internet traffic has more download than upload (for the end-consumer). This is literally why ISPs offer faster download speeds in end-consumer packages than upload speeds - they know that consumers will need to download more than they upload. Yes, but they also have commercial customers that send out lots of data. Netflix is an outlier all by itself, outweighing the connection.

> Yes, but they also have commercial customers that send out lots of data.

Who?

From what I can tell even their commercial offerings are heavily asymmetric to downloading: http://business.comcast.com/internet/business-internet/plans...

Download / Upload (in Mbps)

16 / 3

50 / 10

75 / 15

100 / 20

150 / 20

So who are these companies that use Comcast to send a lot?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask you something else. How large should a company need to be to get free connections to last mile ISPs? If any company could do it, then instead of paying for hosting or internet, I'd just pay for one computer and hook it up directly to the ISP. That isn't possible for every website. Why should Netflix be able to do that and not smaller sites?

While we're asking each other silly questions, let me ask you this: if my ISP says that they're providing me with "internet access" but actually only provides me with "most of the internet minus a few people we'd like to shake-down access", this is OK?

No, and luckily nobody was doing that.

And my question was serious. If you think that what Netflix was asking for should be given as a matter of principle, then it shouldn't matter how large they are, and absolutely every website should never have to pay for bandwidth again. What exactly am I missing?

Re: Why Your Netflix Traffic Is Slow and Why the FCC Won’t Necessarily Make It Fast

#70
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All Internet traffic has more download than upload (for the end-consumer). This is literally why ISPs offer faster download speeds in end-consumer packages than upload speeds - they know that consumers will need to download more than they upload. Yes, but they also have commercial customers that send out lots of data. Netflix is an outlier all by itself, outweighing the connection.

> Yes, but they also have commercial customers that send out lots of data. Who? From what I can tell even their commercial offerings are heavily asymmetric to downloading: http://business.comcast.com/internet/business-internet/plans... Download / Upload (in Mbps) 16 / 3 50 / 10 75 / 15 100 / 20 150 / 20 So who are these companies that use Comcast to send a lot?

That's not for businesses running websites, that's for using the internet in a business. http://business.comcast.com/internet/business-internet/web-h... is relevant, although it doesn't give speeds. But presumably anyone who buys that is sending more data out of comcast than they are receiving.

And as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I'd like to see a chart of data in and out excluding Netflix and large companies. If the problem only affects them or other large companies (like Youtube, Apple, Microsoft, etc, which all pay for direct connections), but not small websites, then I think that would support my argument.

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