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Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#61
post #27

I like to think of these and other effects from global warming as the planet's system of healing. The warmer the climate gets, the more ways it tries to heals, and the more damage happens as a result. If I were to apply that theory here, how is this "slow-down" part of that process?

The planet isn't an organism with an immune system reacting to infections. It's a ball of rock that "couldn't care less" if there are beings living on it. The systems that exist on the surface of the planet are just physical processes reacting to other physical processes. Nothing more. Ocean currents aren't changing as part of a process of "healing" they are changing because they are governed by the laws of physics.

That is quite arrogant of a claim that it is "just a ball of rock." The planet has methods of reversal built in. My reference to the word "healing" is its ability to reverse and go back to conditions that are normal.

If you want reference, look up global dimming, and look up the problems global dimming is causing. Also, take into account the different reactions that global warming is causing. You can see "healing" elements when you notice that the ocean takes in more CO2 as the planet gets warmer. Ice caps also take in CO2. if you look at weather exteremities like freezing and hot days, snow and rain and drought, and hurricanes, you notice that greenhouse gases do react to this. On hot days, infrared energy is sent back to space. On snow, rain, and freezing days, CO2 settles. The more you look, the more you see that the planet reacts to bring things back to normal. more plants, more bacteria, more life. These processes are also part of physics. But just because the planet heals does not mean we ignore climate change. The "healing" is just as detrimental.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not completely true, virtually all the oxygen on Earth came from bacteria. Life interacts with physics.

The bacteria weren't attempting to seed life or "heal" the Earth by producing oxygen. It was a by-product, that by coincidence other organisms were able to develop to use.

Enough with the "heal" already. I was being metaphorical.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#63
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The planet isn't an organism with an immune system reacting to infections. It's a ball of rock that "couldn't care less" if there are beings living on it. The systems that exist on the surface of the planet are just physical processes reacting to other physical processes. Nothing more. Ocean currents aren't changing as part of a process of "healing" they are changing because they are governed by the laws of physics.

That is quite arrogant of a claim that it is "just a ball of rock." The planet has methods of reversal built in. My reference to the word "healing" is its ability to reverse and go back to conditions that are normal. If you want reference, look up global dimming, and look up the problems global dimming is causing. Also, take into account the different reactions that global warming is causing. You can see "healing" el…

> That is quite arrogant of a claim that it is "just a ball of rock."

Arrogant how? The planet is quite literally a "ball of rock" hurtling through space that happens to have a bunch of other stuff on its surface.

> My reference to the word "healing" is its ability to reverse and go back to conditions that are normal.

This is just a reference to a system that tends towards a particular equilibrium. There is nothing "healing" about it. Also, considering the timescales involved, we don't even know if the systems involved on Earth's surface even tend toward any sort of equilibrium. It may just oscillate on a very large period.

> The more you look, the more you see that the planet reacts to bring things back to normal. more plants, more bacteria, more life.

What is "normal" though? It certainly wasn't "normal" during Earth's period of volcanism.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#64
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What would it take to convince you? Not speaking specifically to this issue, but I've lost a lot of my trust in science after reading a great deal of literature in psychology and paying attention to how funding impacts results. To reference XKCD, if I really wanted to and had enough funds, I could produce findings that a given candy causes acne. And if the opposition side is too politically unpopular to have compara…

Science on the tv and radio works this way (also, sadly Science as a career as well) but Science proper doesn't. You could do a study that showed candy causing acne, but if I falsified your hypothesis with a single cheap study showing that I fed the candy to another group of people and saw no effect (double blind etc), and other people reproduced that - then Science would move on (chewing the sweeties and spot free!)…

If all scientists were apolitical and resisted any outside influence it wouldn't be much of a problem. But reality is that many aren't and it takes a lot of effort to identify who is and who isn't.

>The trouble is that nothing like enough of this behaviour (checking, falsifying) goes on - because it doesn't make a career.

Yep, this is another part of the problem.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#65
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what the truth is, it matters what you believe the truth to be. The truth doesn't matter, nor does what you believe. The only thing that actually matters is how you act. You could happily say that there's only a 0.0001% chance that humanity is affecting climate change, but if that's enough to get you to stop doing things that might harm the planet just in case then that's brilliant. The most importa…

Before banning something because it may have a 0.0001% chance of being bad for the Earth's climate, you should be sure that it doesn't have a 0.0002% chance of being good for the Earth's climate. That's why you need science and proof to try to know the truth, or at least do the best effort. If you don't care about the truth you can use Tarot cards or Ouija tables, that are cheaper and least wasteful than a bunch of P…

> a bunch of Ph.D. that just want to put buoys and launch satellites to measure everything.

I'm not really understanding here. "measuring everything" is how science is performed. Are you for or against "science?"

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the answers to your questions. I do know they are natural questions and that it appears you are not an expert in these matters. Thus it is almost surely the case the experts have thought about these questions and have answers. What makes you think the experts in this area have their beliefs and knowledge skewed by politics? Do you believe this for other areas of science? I'm old enough to remember the de…

Thus it is almost surely the case the experts have thought about these questions and have answers. A great example is nutritional science. It was widely accepted that a diet high in fat was bad for you. If you had stood up and said "I disagree, fat is good for you!" you'd be regarded as a kook. Look at where we are now with regards to nutrition and fat.

I used the phrase "almost surely" because there are occasional counterexamples. It is hardly normative that in an area of science where 95%+ of the scientists believe something and have that belief backed by evidence that they are wrong. It does happen.

It is also true that natural questions are generally natural to the people who study that area. Thus it's something that they've thought of. It is highly improbable that an amateur is going to ask a question or make a point that hasn't at least been thought about by the experts in that area.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#67
post #31

I've never been fully convinced of anthropomorphic climate change. There's just too much politics involved for me to be convinced of such relatively recent studies. That said, I'll convert all of my energy sources to PV cells tomorrow if someone gives me a way to do it without mortgaging the next ten years of my life.

> There's just too much politics involved When tobacco was under attack the companies paid for scientists and doctors to spread misleading information; they paid for FUD. Those same scientists are now employed by oil and energy companies and they are using the same tactics. The only reason there's "politics" involved is because one side is deliberately spreading lies about the entirety of the science, even the bits t…

I don't know why you were downvoted, I think your comment is factual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#68
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you repost it here? Reddit is behind a firewall where I am.

Reddit post, reposted here without comment or endorsement: ---- [–]horvybaby 1515 points 11 hours ago*x3 Okay, so let's get a few things correct: because perhaps Nature is behind a paywall for some people. Rahmstorf et. al. show a decrease in THC/MOC variability for the period 1970-1990, which we have then partially recovered from. The title of the Nature article is inflammatory, but the Washington Post article is si…

Would you perhaps say that one could only say something about thermohaline circulation trends 20 years from now, when there's 30 years of data?

Until that, what should our policy be based on?

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit post, reposted here without comment or endorsement: ---- [–]horvybaby 1515 points 11 hours ago*x3 Okay, so let's get a few things correct: because perhaps Nature is behind a paywall for some people. Rahmstorf et. al. show a decrease in THC/MOC variability for the period 1970-1990, which we have then partially recovered from. The title of the Nature article is inflammatory, but the Washington Post article is si…

Would you perhaps say that one could only say something about thermohaline circulation trends 20 years from now, when there's 30 years of data? Until that, what should our policy be based on?

I have no idea! I was simply re-posting the Reddit comment referenced by @dm3 and requested by @Patient0.

In case its not abundantly clear from the first line: the Reddit comment was not written by me.

Re: Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before banning something because it may have a 0.0001% chance of being bad for the Earth's climate, you should be sure that it doesn't have a 0.0002% chance of being good for the Earth's climate. That's why you need science and proof to try to know the truth, or at least do the best effort. If you don't care about the truth you can use Tarot cards or Ouija tables, that are cheaper and least wasteful than a bunch of P…

> a bunch of Ph.D. that just want to put buoys and launch satellites to measure everything. I'm not really understanding here. "measuring everything" is how science is performed. Are you for or against "science?"

I'm for science. I thought that "use Tarot cards or Ouija tables" was enough to mark the rest of the sentence as ironic.
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