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How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

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Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#61

Post by xlm1717 »

USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

I want to start by thanking you for your service to our country. But knowing that, your elitism in the rest of your comment is even more confusing.

Not everyone is going to work on large scale engineered systems. Even companies with those systems are gonna need cheaper mediocre coders to code the app that uses the engineered system as a backbone. So what if a few months at hacker school won't replace a four year degree in CS. Take as much or as little schooling as you want, as long as employers are willing to pay for your skills.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#62

Post by crimsonalucard »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #53
crimsonalucard wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've met these hacker school/self taught types. One of them worked as a programmer for 20 years and didn't know what was recursion until about a year ago. He gets away with it because in programming there are many ways to solve a problem. Usually you only need to solve the problem rather then find the best way to do it. A CS graduate will know about a 50 ways to solve a problem and will have the ability to find the m…

> He gets away with it because in programming there are many ways to solve a problem. Usually you only need to solve the problem rather then find the best way to do it. "Getting away with it" == using another solution. > A CS graduate will know about a 50 ways to solve a problem and will have the ability to find the most optimal way to do it. He'd probably take twice as long as the hacker school graduate who'd solve…

"Getting away with it" == using another solution.

Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution"

>Disagree. I rarely find someone with a degree to be substantially better than someone self-taught on the job. I've even seen developers with degrees do far worse.

Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performance and degrees. This is probably the case for many jobs. However for a job where it does matter, say the programmers behind the V8 engine or people implementing Ruby and the python features, a degree or knowledge about theory makes a huge difference.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#63

Post by toomuchtodo »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #62
toomuchtodo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He gets away with it because in programming there are many ways to solve a problem. Usually you only need to solve the problem rather then find the best way to do it. "Getting away with it" == using another solution. > A CS graduate will know about a 50 ways to solve a problem and will have the ability to find the most optimal way to do it. He'd probably take twice as long as the hacker school graduate who'd solve…

"Getting away with it" == using another solution. Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" >Disagree. I rarely find someone with a degree to be substantially better than someone self-taught on the job. I've even seen developers with degrees do far worse. Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performan…

> Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performance and degrees. This is probably the case for many jobs. However for a job where it does matter, say the programmers behind the V8 engine or people implementing Ruby and the python features, a degree or knowledge about theory makes a huge difference.

Its disingenuous to think everyone needs to obtain that level of knowledge, at substantial cost, when only a few are going to use that knowledge in the scenarios you described. Not everyone needs to know how to create programming language or write a complier.

We should not look down on those who are bootstrapping themselves in the industry without the exorbitant costs of a CS degree lest we retreat to the mindset of ancient guilds.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#64

Post by crimsonalucard »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #63
crimsonalucard wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Getting away with it" == using another solution. Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" >Disagree. I rarely find someone with a degree to be substantially better than someone self-taught on the job. I've even seen developers with degrees do far worse. Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performan…

> Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performance and degrees. This is probably the case for many jobs. However for a job where it does matter, say the programmers behind the V8 engine or people implementing Ruby and the python features, a degree or knowledge about theory makes a huge difference. Its disingenuous to think everyone needs to obtain that level of know…

>Its disingenuous to think everyone needs to obtain that level of knowledge, at substantial cost, when only a few are going to use that knowledge in the scenarios you described. Not everyone needs to know how to create programming language or write a complier.

This knowledge is usually what separates someone with a degree and someone without one.

I don't look down on someone without a degree, but I have no doubt in my mind that such a person will have a higher chance of being less capable of implementing high concept applications like a ray tracer, a 3D engine, search algorithm, operating system, or a machine learning system, ... etc. These jobs are not so obscure that only a 'few' people need to know it, as you seem to indicate.

In fact there's a popular new buzz word in CS called "Big Data" where those involved need a huge amount of theoretical knowledge that cannot be gained from simply attending a hacker school.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#65

Post by robotkilla »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #62
toomuchtodo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He gets away with it because in programming there are many ways to solve a problem. Usually you only need to solve the problem rather then find the best way to do it. "Getting away with it" == using another solution. > A CS graduate will know about a 50 ways to solve a problem and will have the ability to find the most optimal way to do it. He'd probably take twice as long as the hacker school graduate who'd solve…

"Getting away with it" == using another solution. Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" >Disagree. I rarely find someone with a degree to be substantially better than someone self-taught on the job. I've even seen developers with degrees do far worse. Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performan…

> Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution"

Someone define recursion here... are we saying this guy didn't know what a recursive loop was for 20 years, or are you using "recursion" in some other way?

edit what i mean is this: did the guy have a hard time defining recursion in terms of CS, or could he flat out not demonstrate it with some pseudo code?

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#66

Post by crimsonalucard »

robotkilla wrote: post #65
crimsonalucard wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Getting away with it" == using another solution. Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" >Disagree. I rarely find someone with a degree to be substantially better than someone self-taught on the job. I've even seen developers with degrees do far worse. Sure in jobs where the most optimal solution doesn't matter there is no correlation with performan…

> Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" Someone define recursion here... are we saying this guy didn't know what a recursive loop was for 20 years, or are you using "recursion" in some other way? edit what i mean is this: did the guy have a hard time defining recursion in terms of CS, or could he flat out not demonstrate it with some pseudo code?

He admitted to me he didn't learn about it until about a year ago. Meaning he never used it in his code and he never understood the concept.

He was a python programmer. Typically in python, you shouldn't use recursion anyway.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#67

Post by patio11 »

nostrademons wrote: post #60
USNetizen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, to ship working software you need nothing - high schoolers do it. But to MAINTAIN and ENGINEER an efficient, secure software system (especially for enterprise environments), you need CS fundamentals. These CAN be learned on the job over several years of work, but no 6 week school can teach you them overnight.

I might be misreading this, but I read patio11's comment as "Even if you have CS fundamentals, you are still woefully unqualified to be working on production software. The ability to MAINTAIN and ENGINEER an efficient, secure system HAS TO BE learned on the job over several years of work." This squares with my experience as well. I have a CS degree from a good school, but switched into it in my last semester after se…

Total agreement.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#68

Post by robotkilla »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #66
robotkilla wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not knowing recursion for 20 years is more "getting away with it" then just simply "using another solution" Someone define recursion here... are we saying this guy didn't know what a recursive loop was for 20 years, or are you using "recursion" in some other way? edit what i mean is this: did the guy have a hard time defining recursion in terms of CS, or could he flat out not demonstrate it with some pseudo code?

He admitted to me he didn't learn about it until about a year ago. Meaning he never used it in his code and he never understood the concept. He was a python programmer. Typically in python, you shouldn't use recursion anyway.

Recursion isn't very good in Python this is true. I'm not going to judge the guy's skills since I don't know him, but that seems to be a common pitfall that a lot of developers I know find themselves in - they learn a single language or framework and never break out of it.
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