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In Defense of the Midwest

ntietz.com

61–70 of 182 posts

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#61
I moved from Cleveland to the Bay Area two and a half years ago. It was probably the best decision I have ever made. While working down in Mountain View, I learned there is absolutely nothing special about Silicon Valley. What is being done here in the Bay Area can be replicated anywhere. Had I not moved here, I would still have this vision of Silicon Valley being a special place.

I would even go so far as to say you're better off starting a company in the Midwest. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and you can still find good talent. Sure, it will be harder to raise money; however, money will find the truly good ideas.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#62
post #9

I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd. I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded, smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the first to decry the inefficiencies of havi…

I've spent the majority of my time in the Midwest (mainly Chicago, but Milwaukee & Indy) and am currently on both coasts quite a bit (San Diego & NYC).

I would say that the main differences are in scope and pace.

The work ethic & amicability of the midwest is unparalleled pretty much anywhere. That said, as an entrepreneur or founder outside of Chicago-proper, I've found it terribly difficult to connect with any large amounts of people. There are lots of people building small businesses (but have essentially built themselves a job that is dependent on them), but not very many entrepreneurs (building systems that scale).

As far as tech goes, again, it's tough to find people outside Chicago-proper (although it's getting better).

That said, you do tend to have a lot more people who are content & happy, and seemingly a much more consistent pace of life.

Most people on HN seem to have little familiarity with actually living or experiencing the midwest (but many of the cities are well worth visiting - especially in the summer).

The biggest downside to me was the geography. I love Chicago, but for 1/2 the year it's freezing and depressing with not many outdoor activities to partake in :(

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#63

You don't need to defend the midwest. Most people outside of San Francisco couldn't give less of a shit about San Francisco. The three primary smells of SF are urine, human feces, and weed. I think Seattle folk are becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of moving down there. Some dream of it of course, but I think they're decreasing in number. Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talen…

>Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that simply won't move to the bay

I think a lot of that is driven by Amazon, because they built the downtown offices. People get used to working downtown and they want to stay there. Easy commutes from Capitol Hill/QA/etc.

Now Facebook is expanding downtown, Google Fremont is growing, etc. because people refuse to commute to the east side.

As opposed to the Valley, where your options are (except for Twitter and mostly startups)

1) Work in the valley, and live the suburbs. Yuck. Pay a billion dollars for the privlege.

2) Work in the valley and live in SF. Pay a billion^2 dollars for the privilege, and have a shit commute (sitting on a private bus is still sitting on a bus).

No thanks.

That being said, I went to Case Western and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#64
post #5

No one who has done his research doubts that Cleveland can be a really nice place to live. It's a charming midsize city with lots of good stuff happening. Unfortunately, that's often not how we choose our geographic location. America's major cities (Chicago, Los Angeles, New York) and one midsize city with a special industry focus (the bay area) offer almost inconceivable economic opportunity to people in HN's line o…

"Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity."

I live in the midwest and visited Cleveland last year. Outside of about two streets downtown, it's pretty much a ghost town at night.

Many, many businesses have left over the past 5 years because of the economy.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#65
I was in the exact same boat just two years ago.

I always thought I'd move to the valley to work for a startup and then eventually start my own. After my first offer right out of college with a company in SF didn't work out I ended up taking a job in DC.

My god am I glad that I held out on that one. Not only did I make a comparable salary in DC but the housing cost was at least half. I was paying slightly less than $2k for a nice 600 sqft one bedroom. In SF it would have been closer to $3.5k.

Now two years later I work remotely from Portland for a company based out of Madison Wisconsin. Who would have thought right? Certainly not me 2 years ago. As I've grown and traveled the US I've found the valley to be less and less desirable (and yes, I've been there several times).

Honestly the only draw to the valley is the higher volume of jobs. Aside from Google, Apple, et al, you're going to be saving far less in the valley than anywhere else. There's no incentive to move the valley if you can find a job anywhere else. I know people will tell you the network of VCs, the atmosphere, etc. But it's all overrated. If you're right out of school your number one concern should be saving money and learning. If you work in the valley you're only getting access to one of those and it's certainly not saving money (again, unless you're working for Big Tech Co.).

Now don't get me wrong. There are certainly places out there that are far superior to others. I would certainly rather live in the valley than Houston. The cultural aspect is key. I'm simply saying don't run to the valley because you have some idealized image of it. Research and do the math.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#66
post #2

I guess I find it a bit off-putting that a blog post trying to dispel stereotypes about a geographic region stoops to saying things like "On both coasts, the pace of life is really, really high: you just go, go, go and work constantly." This might be the norm in New York and Silicon Valley, but the south isn't this way, and I have been to towns as far east as MA that have laid back cultures — visit the town of Welles…

Wellesley MA is one of the most expensive suburbs of Boston with home prices above million, most of IT guys would have to work day and night to live in that laid back culture :)

Not arguing that it is cheap, just saying that the generalization that everywhere near the coast is fast moving is incorrect. Cheaper options include Wilmington, NC, Raleigh, NC, and Asheville, NC -- I skew NC because I lived there for several years and loved it (and I am now based in the Bay Area).

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#67

(1) Cleveland gets all the Broadway shows once they go off Broadway, but at about half the cost, (2) We have great music here, including the world-renowned Cleveland Jazz Orchestra, and tons of bands come through, (3) We have some great sports teams (hi, OSU) and a ton of great sports fans (hi, Browns fans), (4) We have great food at very affordable prices Yes, exactly. As someone who lives in New York, this is the v…

This afternoon I just went to see a new opera that premiered yesterday at the Minnesota Opera Company (The Manchurian Candidate). I hardly feel deprived living in Minneapolis with the The Minnesota Orchestra, The Minnesota Opera, The St. Paul Chamber Orchestra, The Schubert Club, and a dozen other ensembles I'm forgetting. And that's just classical music, which is what I'm interested in.

If you're into live theater there's a dozen or more shows going at any one time. I'm sure there's a visual arts scene of which I'm happily unaware, jazz performances, dozens of small clubs, and more.

There's more than enough culture to fill my available time and interest. Living in NYC, I'm not sure I'd go see all that much more of it. Yes, I'd be spoiled for choices (and I miss the American Composers Orchestra) but I'm not really suffering in Minneapolis.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#68
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if more acceptance of remote work will change this. Image a thousand or ten thousand remote engineers, getting Google salaries. That is a lot of income, a lot taxes, a lot of spending power. There are smaller cities that are called one-company towns. One university, one army base, one large manufacturing plant. That is the largest and most prominent employer in the region. If that one thing goes away, the town…

I work remote from a small city in the Midwest and easily bring in > 200k servicing select clients from throughout the country. It could be a lot greater if I had any interest in subcontracting/hiring or growing. While I occasionally visit SF I always get a good chuckle when my friend that lives there talks about how expensive things are and the pains of living there.

If you do have any interest in subcontracting web or iOS work please ping me. Contact info is in my profle.

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#69
post #9

I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd. I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded, smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the first to decry the inefficiencies of havi…

Your view of this is exactly backwards. To get an accurate view of what is happening, start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely? The kind that needs constant face-to-face contact, especially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need t…

> start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely?

Just about any kind of software development can be done remotely, really. It's really a function of the skills possessed by everyone involved in a distributed team vs the obstacles distribution may or may not present (and there's different degrees of remoteness -- same city, same time zone, same country, same hemisphere all present different challenges)

> specially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need to be in New York or San Francisco.

Unless the CEO doesn't (or your customers don't) live in SF and NY.

I suppose the next line is "well, the investors aren't going to want to visit flyover country." It turns out -- strangely enough -- there are even investors who don't live in SF and NY, though sometimes they strangely don't all want to invest in a slick social deals pyramid or revenue-free chat app or whatever else is hot at the moment...

Re: In Defense of the Midwest

#70
The problem I have with the cost of living argument is that, while housing tends to be cheaper, an iPad or a new car is not. That lower salary hurts everywhere except in mortgage or rent. And I say this as someone who has never lived in the Bay Area and hopefully never will.
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