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Fired

zachholman.com

61–70 of 410 posts

Re: Fired

#61
I’ve been fired three times.

The first time was early in my career. A site manager decided to impose working hours that (a) were in opposition to how I was recruited and (b) not what the client wanted, but (c) didn’t matter anyway because the site manager had the power to do that. This was no great loss. I was better off out of there than working under those circumstances. I had a new job a month later paying 50% more.‡

The second time was a few years ago. Another employee screwed over the entire team. He did something really stupid that caused him to be fired, the executive sponsor to be fired, and then a week later, me to be fired—just three weeks after I had started. Again, this was no great loss, but the company handled the whole situation very badly (they were one of two options I had when being recruited; they won, but they treated me like crap when I was fired). I was far better of out of there because it turned out that the management team without that executive sponsor was pretty stupid when it came to technology.

The third time was last fall. A new head of engineering had come in and he decided that (a) he was the only person who could be bombastic about technology opinions, (b) he didn’t like my technology opinions and (c) he didn’t like me. I wasn’t better off out of there—this was one of the best teams I had ever worked with. I was better off not working for him, for sure. In the end, what he did was truly stupid: he isn’t there anymore and neither are the three other senior software engineers that were there when I was there. Those departures probably wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t done that.•

At the same time, I had a job doing something more clearly two months later. Less pay, but much more opportunity to learn, grown, and shape a team the way that I want to shape the team.

Being fired hurts. Each of those times was depressing, because either I had just wound down a job search and didn’t want to spin it up again or I wasn’t ready for a job search. It sounds like Zach is doing the right thing—he’s got the tools and a bit of time to pull himself together, and he’s figuring out what he wants to do with the next phase of his career. Best of luck.

‡ More importantly, during that job search, I came to Canada the first time and met the woman who encouraged me to immigrate to Canada and whom I would eventually marry.

• This last job search was interesting because the middle one was so short that it could clearly be seen as Not My Fault. This one…I had to address why I was no longer at the company clearly, directly, and without evasion or disparagement. I handled it very well, I think. I also figured out that I didn’t want to just be the “seniormost” person; I wanted to be the acknowledged team lead/dev manager. That changed the job search substantially.

Re: Fired

#62
post #8

Why was he fired?

And that's the part of being fired you usually don't discuss publicly. It always makes somebody look bad and nobody wants to burn bridges

But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells.

Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is.

Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, but giving them the cover of complete anonymity is not good.

Re: Fired

#63
post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under.

That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration.

Managers who are good engineers don't always manage well. Managers who have never been engineers are usually worse.

> When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot manage them

Especially middle managers, if they are not the owner and have their own managers on top of them, who also don't know how engineering works, there will be trouble. Because they are stuck in the middle. They have to please the ones on the top, without understanding how the programming actually works. So they'll make promises then turn around to you and tell you to work 70 hour weeks.

> So long as the "people managers" are biz guys who don't understand engineering

It is hard. The more time they spend managing and coordinating the less time they spend writing code. The less time they spend writing code the further they move from understanding what is involved. They just forget, or practices and tools change.

Besides leadership is the key. That is as much learned as it is just a personality trait. It ties into how they relate socially to others, how they solve social and political problems. It requires empathy, but also harshness and coldness at times. I can be learned by I wouldn't discount it too trivial.

Re: Fired

#65
post #43
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the intent was to make it look like a natural next step, he wouldn't be writing a blog post about how he was fired. If he really was fired for that incident, I'd much prefer GitHub to be open about it and make it clear that was why.

He said he was fired, but not how.

Yes. My point was that "being fired" is not the "natural next step" for anyone.

Re: Fired

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's the part of being fired you usually don't discuss publicly. It always makes somebody look bad and nobody wants to burn bridges

But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells. Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is. Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, b…

Perhaps meritocracy is a term used by those in power to placate those that don't have power, to give them the illusion that it is all just a objective and clear and if they fail it is all their fault because they didn't merit it.

Re: Fired

#67
You get these feelings even when you are not fired and going thru a bad period in your job etc. Loved that he is very articulated and honest, it makes for a nice piece to read and think again and again.

I'm sure he will get nicer gigs in the futures and wish the best of luck.

I just wonder - how do you get fired from a no-manager company ? A robot ? http://www.fastcolabs.com/3020181/open-company/inside-github...

Re: Fired

#68

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

>>I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life.

People take getting fired personally because, at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of not just their self-identity, but also their social image. So when they lose that job, it's like they lose a part of themselves.

Re: Fired

#69

How on earth would this ever benefit you? Oh by the way I got fired. I know it's taboo because well it's not a good thing but I'm gonna change that. Because it was awesome. Thank you sir may I have another? What the.. I've been fired before. Wasn't too happy about it myself.

> How on earth would this ever benefit you?

Breaking taboos is a good way to get noticed. Zach getting noticed is a good way to broadcast the fact that he's available for hire. That, taken with his strong reputation in the community? I'd be shocked if he wasn't sitting on a tidy bundle of offers in the next week.

Re: Fired

#70
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't it bad for him to talk about this publicly and insinuate that his manager was shit and that he was fired for no good reason? I didn't take him to be trash-talking his manager. He left it open. Sure, he implied that he was fired for a non-character-related reason, but that's hardly specific enough to be damning. It's a dangerous move, not because anything Zach said is harmful or embarrassing to himself or Github…

"Virtually everyone I've had drinks with tells a similar story about the time they got fired. Seemingly everyone’s got stories of being stuck under shit managers, or dealing the fallout from things out of their control." Sounds to me like he had a shit manager.

... or he dealt with fallout from things out of his control.

Zach's move was a risky one that I probably wouldn't have made in that situation, but I don't think that his intention was to smear his manager or Github. That said, it's not clear to me what his intention was. You get some sympathy from being fired, but the impression you want as a reward-optimizing professional is that absolutely everyone desires you (regardless of whether it's true). I don't know what variables are in play that would lead him to depart from (perceived, from my vantage point) optimality.

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