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Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

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Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#61
post #22

9/11 style terrorism was solved by reinforcing the cockpit doors. Everything else has been police state fear mongering.

It was solved as soon as ordinary passengers realized that hijackers didn't want hostages anymore. The cockpit door thing is security theatre too.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#62

He has good arguments (except for one) but history has mostly shown that it's not wise to say something can never happen. Now for what I feel was one of his bad arguments: "None of today's military aircraft are up to the job of intercepting it, and indeed, active radar can't even track it effectively—for that, you'd need something on the order of a cold war ballistic missile warning radar system, designed to provide…

Does someone else find the interception argument pretty thin? If we are at some point in the future where we have commercial sub orbital flights, then you can bet your pants that military technology is a decade ahead at least. Why would it be intercepted by "today's military aircraft" when we are talking about a point in time that is clearly a few decades from now at least?

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#63
He makes good points but I've said it before and I'll say it again: sub orbital flights and non-interplanetary space travel in general is where the airline industry used to be which is a rough spot with a lot of known and unknown safety issues and expensive costs with inexpensive alternative but traditional methods.

Today, I can buy a ticket for about the same price as dinner for two, maybe three. Back in the day say the 50s and 60s it was only the elite who could purchase a ticket because the rates were so expensive. Then, bus travel ala Greyhound was the way to go for long distance travel before commercial airlines really became more affordable.

ADDENDUM: okay maybe a really nice dinner for two or three.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#64
post #36
post #21

You can make a similar list about anything that doesn't exist yet. If it were easy, it probably would have been done. Eight years ago, you could have made an equivalent list about electric cars. Well, we have electric cars now and that situation is looking pretty good. Imagine you are an Elon-Musk-alike who wants to make fast air travel happen. Then this article isn't a list of why it's impossible, it is a list of pr…

Reminded of the Hamming quote: If you do not work on an important problem, it's unlikely you'll do important work. It's perfectly obvious. Great scientists have thought through, in a careful way, a number of important problems in their field, and they keep an eye on wondering how to attack them. Let me warn you, `important problem' must be phrased carefully. The three outstanding problems in physics, in a certain sen…

I suppose if you have those three, then a warp engine would be straightforward.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#65
I used to work for an air charter company so know a bit about biz jets. Stross is missing an important point: there are only a handful of heavy jets that can fly non-stop from LHR to SYD. The Global Express (and variants), Dassault's 7X/8X and that's about it. They cost from $50 million up, can seat a maximum of 8 to 10 people and are impossible to charter "by the seat". They also require long runways, restricting which airports they can use compared to smaller biz jets.

If something like the Sabre existed I can guarantee that high net-worth people in Europe/America with urgent business meetings (or a desire to maximise their holiday) in Australia would use it even if it meant needing to charter a helicopter to/from the space port to the centre of the city. Whether or not there would be enough demand to keep a regularly scheduled service going is another question. Stross is right when he says it's hard to see how it could compete with existing air transport options between shorter range locations (e.g. London - New York).

Sabre (or similar) would have advantages for New York (or London) to Beijing though, so, who knows, in another 10 or 20 years maybe there will be enough demand for a few well chosen scheduled routes. In any case, I don't buy the terrorism angle at all. The problem will be (as is often the case in commercial aviation) finding and pricing route(s) to produce a viable passenger yield. Tricky if the only routes that make sense are long-haul ones with a high density of frequent first class business flyers (that's a pretty small pool).

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#66
post #4

The first reason is "because terrorism". It's difficult to keep reading, because the logic the author follows does not fit with the title or point the author's trying to make. This is a largely list of reasons why sub-orbital airliners aren't already common; it's got baseline assumptions that technology will not rapidly improve, that airports will not innovate, that passenger demand is static, etc. I don't understand…

Doesn't take much to put you off an idea, does it? You do realize that quite a bit of the security measures one takes to undergo travel by air is "because terrorism", right? And that's also why they scramble jets at the first sign of oddity? Countries have rules that planes must follow if they want to fly in their airspace, and many of them have consequences if those rules are not followed. I can see that being an inconvenience to some, but c'est la vie.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#67
Proposing hyper-scale projects can make a small group a tidy profit. Being on such a huge scale, early proposals & research can take years (not requiring a large team), and those interested in throwing enormous funds at the actual implementation think little of the relatively tiny funds (but still large for those working on it) for preliminary analysis.

We may not see sub-orbital airliners for a long time, but those working on early analysis now can make a comfortable living on it.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly a fact. In my view Concorde was killed by a 'perfect storm': changing market conditions, 9/11, that terrible crash in Paris. Together those three were what caused the towel to be thrown into the ring. Every time I visit Paris and I see it impaled on its stand it reminds me of a butterfly or something trying to escape. Such a sad image.

> It's not exactly a fact. Yeah, congress only banned SSTs and supersonic civilian flight right as concorde came online, that can't have had any impact on it.

Yeah, the lack of supersonic overfly on most countries (not just the USA) was one of the main factors against Concorde (despite the fact that in many cases the decibel levels were lower than cotemporaneous aircraft).

It's no coincidence it's main routes (London->JFK, Paris ->JFK) are 90% over the Ocean.

If you actually managed to get long distance hypersonic routes (such as London->Sydney, or even London->Beijing, London->Tokyo, etc.) at a significant time reduction, I can see it working.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#69
post #27
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what the article points out (once you get through the OMG 911!!! crap) is that that's a very small target market. And scheduled commercial air travel generally doesn't serve tiny markets well because the demand is highly variable.

Busy routes, like NYC - London - Tokyo, will likely have enough traffic for a couple flights daily. The jet probably would not have to be as large as a Concorde was to be profitable.

If it's a couple of flights daily then you're waiting up to 12 hours to get on one, and suddenly the time saving doesn't look so spectacular.

Getting the size right is a problem I'm glad I don't have, but best not to make it too small or have too few flights bearing in mind your dollar development costs will be measured in 10s of billions.

Re: Why we're not going to see sub-orbital airliners

#70
The author's terrorism concerns are way overblown and the reasoning supporting them specious, but there is a more basic issue with hypersonic point-to-point transportation systems outside of the additional arguments related to current air travel, at least for vehicles designed to go suborbital/exoatmospheric:

Once we are talking about traveling to a destination and not simply going "straight" up and down, the costs, maintenance issues, safety requirements, development time, thermal management, mission management, guidance systems, etc., get within spitting distance of actually developing an orbital vehicle.

Future technology improvements and cost reductions cannot be ruled out, of course, but given the basic physics and what we know of the near future of aerospace technology, it seems a stretch (at least) to expect a profitable, safe point-to-point suborbital system to be a viable undertaking.

And once we are talking about orbital systems, where the cost and risk/reward equation at least seem to be more desirable and unrelated to point-to-point travel, the question of suborbital point-to-point fades into the background.

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