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We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

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Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#61

Post by hw »

As much as the rotation idea is interesting, and can be beneficial on the surface, I'm not sure if doing so on a recurring basis provides more value than interruption and the setup/teardown costs of context switching.

Sure, a non engineer could learn a thing or two about how code works, and an engineer as well on handling support, but I'd be cautious about these sessions leading to a false sense of understanding how things actually work, which might eventually lead to, for example, a support person making wrong assumptions about an issue a customer is having just because he/she paired on the relevant code base.

IMO cross disciplinary 'rotations' should happen naturally, instead of making it explicit on a certain day in the quarter. Engineers should have exposure on a day to day basis on what customers want as well as have exposure to the product and business side of things in the planning stage of a sprint, understanding why a story or task is prioritized the way they are, etc. Same goes for non engineers like product managers or support personnel who often deal with engineers on an ongoing basis, and the sharing of technical knowledge should come naturally with each discussion.

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#62

Post by hhandoko »

paulhauggis wrote: post #59
einhverfr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So instead of temporary staff, they take people off of their current projects to work in customer service?? This doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Why not? It improves solidarity. Actually when I worked at Microsoft doing tech support, I got pulled off the phones to help with sudden mandatory tech support rotations due to virus outbreaks. It was great to see marketing managers have to help people assess whether…

"Why not? It improves solidarity." There are plenty of better ways to do this. "I got pulled off the phones to help with sudden mandatory tech support rotations due to virus outbreaks." It doesn't sound like you are in any kind of engineering role. When you are on the phones, you don't have one large project to work on with deadlines and due dates. It's easy for you to be shifted over to another position. "If managem…

I think the better way to put it is: it improves empathy.

More often than not, in large teams or organisations there is often a culture of blame or lack of accountability. I believe these exercises do help to foster greater teamwork and a sense of ownership (of the business).

I would assume from the fact that you run your own business, surely in the early stages you would have to take on multiple roles / responsibilities?

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#63

Post by tomjen3 »

Sanddancer wrote: post #39
tomjen3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want your good engineers to leave you, yes. Oh and have even less care for your customers after that.

If you truly feel that way, then I honestly am curious as to why you get up in the morning. Dogfooding, and listening to customer problems and feedback are two of the best ways of making your product better for everyone. A few hours on the phone, or responding to emails is fantastic for breaking up preconceived notions as to what people are doing with your project, and can give new ideas.

To solve interesting problems, not helping people opening the blue googles.

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#64

Post by notahacker »

Klinky wrote: post #54
benihana wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If customer service is stressed so much at Zappos, I imagine working in their call center would be a different experience than most?

Zappos seems to stress a rock star image of it's executives and that it has a "family atmosphere". Meanwhile they pay low wages to their customer service and warehouse employees. It's really hard to believe they truly care while paying employees barely enough to stay afloat. This is pretty typical of all call centers. Most employees bond together to create a "work family", while they while away the hours until they f…

The cynic in me says (i) having "everyone, even the CEO" help out with customer support is a good motivational device to emphasise in what might in every other respect be a substandard customer support working environment (ii) paying regular customer support staff at the low end of market rates is one way of recovering the imputed financial loss of having your $100/hour senior engineers and top bizdev staff focusing a part of their working year on basic customer support queries...

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#67

Post by ema »

tomjen3 wrote: post #63
Sanddancer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you truly feel that way, then I honestly am curious as to why you get up in the morning. Dogfooding, and listening to customer problems and feedback are two of the best ways of making your product better for everyone. A few hours on the phone, or responding to emails is fantastic for breaking up preconceived notions as to what people are doing with your project, and can give new ideas.

To solve interesting problems, not helping people opening the blue googles.

I love to solve interesting problems as much as any hacker, but software businesses are about helping people and when people are having trouble using their computer then that is part of the job. I think it's worth to spend 1% of your work time on customer support to gain an understanding of that on a deep, visceral level.

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#68

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

mcfunley wrote: post #55
frostmatthew wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's about pushing a small change so that a new engineer can see the whole process from end-to-end Is that really an accurate portrayal of the process though? Most changes aren't small and take days of development, not minutes or hours. Not to mention code reviews and QA.

Yes, it really is an accurate portrayal of the process. Etsy isn't pushing days of development out in a deploy. That would be considered poor practice at Etsy. To make a sizable feature live, you use a bunch of methods in cooperation: * Only mutate a bare minimum number of executed lines as code deploys. * Turn features on and off quickly with (much faster) config deploys. * Release and test features for internal use…

That's super Byzantine. Do you guys have a decent test structure? Probably wouldn't have to tip-toe around so much.

Re: We Invite Everyone at Etsy to Do an Engineering Rotation

#69

Post by Sanddancer »

tomjen3 wrote: post #63
Sanddancer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you truly feel that way, then I honestly am curious as to why you get up in the morning. Dogfooding, and listening to customer problems and feedback are two of the best ways of making your product better for everyone. A few hours on the phone, or responding to emails is fantastic for breaking up preconceived notions as to what people are doing with your project, and can give new ideas.

To solve interesting problems, not helping people opening the blue googles.

A superficially boring issue like someone who doesn't know how to fucking google it could be a much more interesting problem. Is your program laid out well? Is there some hitch in the workflow that you're not noticing because you've gotten accustomed to some misfeature? Are they trying to do something with the software that you didn't intend, but could make good money at by offering as a companion product, or other upgrade? These are things that support can teach you, because you're actively engaging with someone who has a problem.
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